Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
We do hear of some of his brothers, who seemingly became believers after His accension, taking an active part in this new Church including James who became the leader, but nothing of His mother.
Actually Acts 1:14-16 presents a slight "problem" concerning the use of "brother" and "brother" in Acts 1:14 and Acts 1:16. It appears, to this old guy and more than 700 million "ignorant" non-Catholics that Acts 1:14 speaks to a discrete group of "brothers" as opposed to the entire group of "brothers/brethren" in Acts 1:16.
Acts 1: (Ignatius Edition)
14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
16* "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Allow me to "correct" my grevious error. :)
Scripture is silent concerning any influence of Mary (Mother of Jesus) after the ressurection.
Are you saying that we shouldn't?
DungeonMaster: Are you saying that we shouldn't?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
“The reason this event takes place Reggie, is because Our Lady presented herself to a native Indian in Mexico in 1531, prompting the conversion of millions of human live baby sacrificing indians, to Jesus. There is a long beautifull history behind many traditions. She became the patron of the unborn.”
Furthermore, I’d add that the Spanish conquest of Mexico is almost inconceivable without the mass conversion of the Aztecs which followed the apparition. There simply weren’t enough conquistadores to overcome the determined resistance of so many millions of Aztecs.
Without the pacification of Mexico it’s hard to see Pizzaro’s conquest of Peru happening, without which Potosi is not discovered. Without the Spanish silver fleets, it hard to see the English investors backing the Virgina Companies.
So, without Guadalupe, it’s hard to see English-speaking settlement of the Americas.
It certainly was divine providence.
I have a dim memory of the Bible Study (though it might be where the "brothers of Jesus story became implanted in my subconcious?) but I do remember the hymn "Don't hide your light under a bushel".
You preach The Gospel and move on. If the Holy Spirit quickens them they will want to know more. I think you are spot on in trying to present the Truth.
Luke 1:48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. First, not an easy verse to find in a concofdance because there are sooooo many other people that are blessed.
Second, in 4 verses here it says she is blessed and she shall be called blessed.
To honor the scriptures is to take it at it's word and go no further or no less far than what it says.
If a parent asks a child to take this twenty dollar bill and buy 1 gallon of 2 percent mild and 1 loaf of wheat bread and bring back the change, then if the kid comes back with 1/2 gallon of skim and some white buns, or if he comes back with 2 gallons of whole milk and 2 loaves of rye, he has not honored his parents words.
These verses about Mary do not say "A new commandment I give you, that you should call Mary the mother of God".
They do not say "A new commandment I give you, that you should call Mary the immaculate conception".
They do not say "A new commandment I give you, that you shall cal Mary Blessed".
This verse says that she shall be called blessed. She carried the Lord Jesus Christ in her womb, she is blessed like the many other people the bible say were blessed. To honor the bible is to take it at exactly what it says rather than building new doctrines or ignoring what is given.
I don't believe God sees denominations But, rather, only asks that you believe in Him.
John 3:
[15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
[16] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[18] He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Catholics, Protestants, whatever - do you believe in Him?
>>Scripture is silent concerning any influence of Mary (Mother of Jesus) after the ressurection.<<
I guess I just see it differently.
She wouldn’t be there if she wasn’t important!
“but I do remember the hymn “Don’t hide your light under a bushel”
We still use it in our kids clubs.
This Little Light of Mine
This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.
This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
(The kids hold up their index finger and move it in a circular motion.)
(The children cup one hand over their finger and when shouting NO they remove their cupped hand)
Hide it under a bushel - NO!
I’m gonna let it shine.
Hide it under a bushel - NO!
I’m gonna let it shine, Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
Won’t let Satan blow it out.
I’m gonna let it shine.
Won’t let Satan blow it out.
I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
(When the kids sing “Won’t let Satan blow it out....they blow on their finger.)
Let it shine til Jesus comes.
I’m gonna let it shine.
Let it shine til Jesus comes.
I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
Let it shine over the whole wide world,
I’m gonna let it shine.
Let it shine over the whole wide world,
I’m gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
They do not say "A new commandment I give you, that you should call Mary the immaculate conception".
They do not say "A new commandment I give you, that you shall cal Mary Blessed".
***************************
And yet, all these things are true. Mary is the Mother of God, she did experience an immaculate conception, and she has been blessed.
Such a bland, cramped view of Scripture!
You're not reading tax code, you know.
Actually there are 1 billion and those different beliefs are not something to be proud of as they are denied when RCs speak of "one church".
I have to share with you the fact that I have always wondered why Jews, Israelis in particular, were so distrustfull of Christians who supported Israel. It made no sense.
Are you speaking of right now or in bible times. I find it very strange that Jews so often vote Democrat too. That seems really selfdefeating.
I now see how strange it is for them, having had a long relationship with God, for some people to come along and claim they weren't saved etc.
Romans 9,10 and 11 are very interesting yet a big confusing on this issue.
That is not the God we know. Man's first sin, was to think we could be like God, by eating the forbidden fruit. Man's second sin was to destroy his brother. God is the only one with universal knowledge and only He is perfect. Christians are called to love each other.
This is why I exort RCs to read their bible and reject Marianism.
If you don't think Jesus' mother is relevant, that's up to you. Please don't throw mudd and nasty generalizations at Catholics to prove your point. It makes us all look bad.
I think she is as relevent as the bible says, no more, no less. I reject the notion that my exorting you or other RCs into honoring the bible makes us look bad. Jesus spoke of how non believers will look at either John the baptist who didn't drink and think he is possessed or at Jesus who did drink and call him a drunk. Outsiders will always decide wrong "wisdom is known by her fruit". I'm not concerned with them. I'm concerned with people that are probably Christians that I hope to edify.
According to the Book of Acts (1:14), after Christ's Ascension into Heaven the apostles "went up into an upper room", and: "all these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren". In spite of her exalted dignity it was not Mary, but Peter who acted as head of the assembly (1:15). Mary behaved in the upper room in Jerusalem as she had behaved in the grotto at Bethlehem; in Bethlehem she had carried for the Infant Jesus, in Jerusalem she nurtured the infant Church. The friends of Jesus remained in the upper room till "the days of the Pentecost", when with "a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming. . .there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them, and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:1-4). Though the Holy Ghost had descended upon Mary in a special way at the time of the Incarnation, He now communicated to her a new degree of grace. Perhaps, this Pentecostal grace gave to Mary the strength of properly fulfilling her duties to her spiritual children.
I mention these things not because I worship Mary, I simply believe that she with Our Savior, from the beginning to the end, to me she was certainly special. I believe scipture does support that from Genesis through Revelations.
“To honor the bible is to take it at exactly what it says rather than building new doctrines or ignoring what is given.”
But even the most strict observer is going to have to admit that “what is given” demands interpretation. St. Paul indeed said “All have sinned,” did this include the Holy Innocents, or, indeed, Jesus himself?
Once interpretation is admitted, the question becomes the authority to interpret correctly. All Marian doctrines are constructed as logical syllogisms of statements made in Scripture about the nature of Christ, in the light of the Church’s authority to interpret those statements. If one disagrees, that’s one’s right, but it’s remarkable arrogance to claim the right of free interpretation for oneself, but not to permit others the same right.
To honor the scriptures is to take it at it's word and go no further or no less far than what it says.
Amen.
Mary is blessed as Daniel was blessed, or Elijah or Enoch. We don't pray to them or expect them to magnify our prayers.
Dan. 9:23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved;...
Wrong again.
NOWHERE does it say that "all generations" (that means ALL OF US) SHALL (not can or should) call ANY of them blessed.
You can spin it however you like, the FACT remains that the Bible instructs you to do something that most Protestants REFUSE to do.
Do you see no danger in placing your entire belief system on legend?
Exactly, and thanks!
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