Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Extremely well put.
Though difficult enough for some of us with different sorts of Daddys in our childhood . . . to wrap our trust around.
Sigh.
I won't say sola scriptura. But I will say that this scripture says that even given a limited subset of the scriptures, they were more trustworthy than the apostles very words. This is just one of the many places where the scriptures are highly honored. Yet on the original topic, you just don't see this of Mary. Mary is so secondary to the idea of protties pleading with RCs to honor the scriptures.
Doing good works is how salvation works in us, it isn't FOR salvation, it IS salvation (or being in salvation, or something like that.)
All that is known of God through Marianism is exactly that, filthy rags. Knowing God through His Holy Word is Knowing God.
I have to share with you the fact that I have always wondered why Jews, Israelis in particular, were so distrustfull of Christians who supported Israel. It made no sense.
I now see how strange it is for them, having had a long relationship with God, for some people to come along and claim they weren't saved etc.
That is not the God we know. Man's first sin, was to think we could be like God, by eating the forbidden fruit. Man's second sin was to destroy his brother. God is the only one with universal knowledge and only He is perfect. Christians are called to love each other.
If you don't think Jesus' mother is relevant, that's up to you. Please don't throw mudd and nasty generalizations at Catholics to prove your point. It makes us all look bad.
"Old man" [Pauline sense, NOT in sense of father ;-) ] doesn't trust, sits around and grumbles in his Marguerita.
God grants faith to us, and other graces.
We don't feel like it. We feel like the same jerk we always were (only our joints hurt more now.)
God says, "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes? I say you are my precious child, my son. Whaddya gonna do NOW, wise guy?"
So, we take a leaf out of God's book and impute to ourselves the faith we don't feel like we have, the faith we don't find in ourselves. Yeah, we feel as we feel, and we can learn from that. But we DO as God gives us to do. Sometimes it's almost like saying, "Let's pretend. Let's pretend I can do what God wants me to do, trust as God wants me to trust. Why then I'd do such and such. So I'll just go do such and such, and let God take care of my crappy flawed intentions and feelings."
FWIW
This is considered the most important religious festival in Mexico And on this day the entire country will express the strong pride that they have in their patronage, their history and their traditions.
Day of Our Lady of Guadalupe
Note the emphasis on Mary.
It’s a patron saint day.
You may have something there.
Pondering.
Thx.
Well put and worthy points.
Or not.
Oh That’s worth a great deal, Dear Bro.
Grabbing my old man and getting him to toe that
trust bit is still more of a challenge than I’d like to admit, however.
The other seems to be so . . . genetic, reflexive . . . sigh.
Thnx.
Back to work
Later.
The reason this event takes place Reggie, is because Our Lady presented herself to a native Indian in Mexico in 1531, prompting the conversion of millions of human live baby sacrificing indians, to Jesus. There is a long beautifull history behind many traditions. She became the patron of the unborn.
It really isn't a sinister plot. Some of my catholic friends get mad at me for mentioning the apparitions, (which have led to many conversions in our Christian history) because most have not been approved of by the church. I personally think they are lovely messages. For example, Fatima warned us of communism. In any case, she always leads us to Jesus. I am not speaking on behalf of all Catholics.
Thank you for those verses from Scripture. They are so beautiful.
"The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalms 27:1 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. – I Thessalonians 5:5Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3
And I'm thrilled over the passages you selected to highlight. That Jesus Christ is the brightness of the Father's glory, is one of my most treasured meditations!
To God be the glory!
“This is considered the most important religious festival in Mexico And on this day the entire country will express the strong pride that they have in their patronage, their history and their traditions.
Day of Our Lady of Guadalupe”
That’s like saying the Irish worship St. Patrick over God.
I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
I love this verse. If my Lord does not condemn me, certainly my brother shouldn't.
BINGO!!!!!!
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