Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It's just you. They believe in sola scriptura, and they don't rely on anyone else's interpretation. It's just them and the HS. No tradition, no saints, no angels, no NOTHING. Just them and God, face to face.
They said so. I take them at their word, doesn't everyone?
Thankfully, Christ doesn’t require any of us to be clones of one another.
The wiring of the transfer switch requires a certain level of expertise which is above that of the typical homeowner. Remember you will be working with line power from the street from. to, and through the transfer switch. I have a 20 circuit panel (about 6 of them 220 Volt) and only 6 120 volt circuits are wired through the transfer switch. The manual which came with the transfer switch is comprehensive but I prefer the approximately $750 to the electrician.
Well, at least one seems to advocate Tradition AND Scripture:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=4299#4299
I understand that the core leadership has sort of acted as a sea anchor, . . . preventing some fringe abuses . . .
however, a good many seem to still flourish under the RC umbrella. I don’t really see any less than I see in the Protty camp.
If I should say “Catholics practice birth control” it is not a lie. To counter with the argument that “they are not Catholics” is specious. Technically correct? Maybe. But, by the time you finished eliminating the “not Catholic” Catholics you wouldn’t have many left.
= =
Excellent point, imho.
I appreciate your thoughtfull comments. I’m sure you are also amazed at the misunderstanding people have of our Catholic faith. I think we have to remember that there are those who just don’t really know us, other than from negative comments of perceptions they recieved from others, and there are those that are simply not well. We shouldn’t confuse the two. I wouldn’t bother to engage in debate with the latter. The temptation to fall into sin, along with them, is just too great. LOL
Undoubtedly different perspectives . . .
I guess Christ’s parable about Abraham’s bossom and the unbridgeable gulf doesn’t impress much of any understanding on the RC consciousness.
Obviously so or they wouldn’t fantasize so much about praying to Mary as any kind of meaningful or effective exercise.
Thanks, you surprise me sometimes.
My experience as a life long Catholic is that relatively few American Catholics look to Our Lady, for help in their prayers.
I can tell you what I think about them, I can pretend that what I think is fact, by cutting and pasting some quotes or excerpts without links, and it will still likely come across like a meaningless insult. That is exactly what you do.
I made the mistake of believing a good Muslim, or whatever you are, was familiar with the Code of Canon Law or at the least knew how to access it.
Try here
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
While there can be doubt in few people's minds about my rejection of the Church of JC of LDS, I was able to have quite an informative exchange with an articulate Mormon who helped me understand their attitude toward systematic theology.
And in a less hostile arena, my favorite Episcopal nun (who may be Catholic now, or have joined one of the splinter groups -- we haven't communicated in decade and she was the superior then and very busy) generally preferred most of the Baptist guests at the convent retreat house to many Episcopalians, because she found she shared with them a great love of our Lord. My impression was they had wonderfully mutually supportive conversations in which they shared what they had in common and examined with courtesy and charity where they differed.
I have ZERO problem with people not knowing what the Church teaches. it does not throw me (though it amuses me still) when people say that we pay divine honors to Mary. And going the other way, I am edified by my exchanges with Alamo-Girl and betty boop.
I attended for three or four years a very edifying get together with leaders who were Catholic "religious" from several orders, Quakers, Orthodox, A Vajrayana Buddhist, A Rinzai Zen Buddhist, and a Theravedan Buddhist or two.
We explicitly stated that we had widely divergent views, but still sought ways to converse and to find similar or analogous "ideals", "values", and thoughts and experiences about what we would call the life of prayer and they would call the Dharma.
It can be done!
But here the enterprise seems dominated by a "zero-sum" mentality in which one side must not only lose but be shown to have lost.
I would think Christians, gathering in such a forum, would be at pains to show a more excellent way to disagree. I don't think I am thin-skinned, but maybe I am. I DO think that when the actual gentle and delicate stroking of a sharpening steel on a blade is turned into hammer and tongs in the name and with the rationalization of "Steel on steel", what we have is a contentious disposition using religion as an outlet.
We did not so learn Christ, IMHO.
Thank you, but I'm sure you will find a lot of RC's who think otherwise.
Catholics do NOT believe that if you do not do “other works” you will not be saved.
Why is Faith Alone condemned? Why must you go to Mass? Why must you partake of the Lord's Supper? Why must you be Baptized by an ordained priest?
Why is it when these discussions get started the first thing posted by a RC is "what about good works?"
Catholics have many traditional teachings, like Jews.
Yes you do right down to the never ending blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Yet Jesus didn't come to continue the law, but to fulfill it. It has been completed. "It is finished".
These traditions and teachings are what help keep the church strong, just like a country’s laws keep a society in order.
All they do is serve to empower a hierarchy of clerics.
What about the power of God to transform us and the Holy Spirit to guide us.
My father-in-law was EO. He came to live with us after suffering a stroke. Going home from church one Sunday he said to my wife about the Pope "well somebody has to be in charge". With out missing a beat, my youngest son said, "what about Jesus". My father-in-law came to know the Lord before he died. I think my son got him on the right track.
I don't mean to be harsh, but there are very significant differences between us.
I think I understand your perspective and your rationale for it.
It did occur to me while reading your above that a lot of us in this region from my family backgroud, particularly . . . are pretty intensely colorful just as a matter of course and a style of communication.
Doesn’t have anything to do with disrespecting those on the other side or the topic or anything—is just a learned style.
In my family, those who yelled ouch at such a style of communication were just considered wimps or sissys or immature or whiners or ignorant or some such. There was not the slightest thought that the typical communication should have been adjusted to take into account the wimp’s sensibilities. The wimp just obviously needed to get a thicker skin. And that was that. No one in the entire reference group thought anything differently—or virtually no one. And, sadly, that kind of attitude and perspective was regardless of personality, age, maturity level or whatever of the person on the receiving end.
The arms flailing thing is an interesting analogy. I’ll have to ponder a good bit before I have much of a useful response.
I’m keenly aware of the depth of the seeming bitterness . . . sometimes seemingly, even vengeance . . . etc. It’s a great grief to me.
That's an error, bro. ANYONE can baptize.
Baptism is said to be "ordinarily" necessary, as distinct from absolutely necessary.
I understand that THAT is how you intensely believe, feel, perceive that you have been responded to.
I undestand that THAT perspection virtually precludes, prevent looking at the exchanges any other way.
That, too, is sad, to me.
No subscription to YOPIOS . . .
I understand . . . the RC version is . . .
The Magisterical’s TWISTED COMMITTEE VERSION of Interpretation of Scripture.
TMTCVOIOS
It’s amazing how anyone would think that a COMMITTEE of flawed humans would arrive at a purer understanding of Scripture.
Sure hasn’t been my experience of committees.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.