Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
As you wish.
Thankfully, mercifully, I am not saved by my fallen human will, but by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone made known to me by the Holy Spirit alone through God's word alone.
Read your Bible.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippeans 2:13
AMEN!
You said you "totally disagree."
About which part? Do I not have the peace of Christ?
Or am I not part of the Body of Christ?
Can I be saved while all these things remain true?
If you have been baptized by a Triune formula, yes.
You still refusing to answer the question? Who told you it is OK to worship Mary instead of God?
Who made up this ‘intercession’ stuff?
No one.
No.
That’s a nice thought, but that’s not what your catechism says.
Unless there's some double-secret probation the church isn't revealing.
Can I be a member of the Roman Catholic church and not know it, even while I'm denying it on my deathbed?
Your conclusion is wrong.
Kissing the Fisherman’s ring is not bowing to the Pope nor kneeling to him nor venerating him. Try again.
That is not what it says.
I know you pinged me on this, but I have no problem with you at all. Your church family sounds wonderful. Please feel welcome here.
Second, if I were, the Protestant rules of criminal, as established on US7’s previous thread, are that it is up to the accused to quell all reasonable doubts of innocence. As I said before, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Goes around, comes around, etc.
But, third, I am not making a case (in case the red-hazed eyes of my antagonists overlooked it the first time). I don't care who believes me. I have learned enough on FR and in my life to know that some perps don't remember or understand what they did, and it's a waste of time to try to get them to do so.
And I am learning even more about the probity of some of the opposition in their minimizing or absent admissions.
But, finally my immune system has kicked in. I titrate high in antibodies to rabies, and I am titrating higher than ever in antibodies to rabid soi-disant debaters.
If anger is what they like, may they enjoy it. If anger is an affliction, may they be cured. I will not enhance their enjoyment or hasten or abet their cure by being hooked by their problems.
So she DID consent.
An interesting conundrum, as Jehovah had already declared her participation through His angel Gabriel... This is a bare fact, as Dr. Eckleburg had previously pointed out.
One cannot argue other than that which God has declared *will* take place, as He has said that His word does not return to Him empty. One may speculate endlessly from that point forward about which takes precedence, God's will or Mary's (free) will, but it is in fact, a matter of speculation. Mary did submit to Jehovah's will immediately, so by the evidence, God's will did in fact prevail, be it by prescience wrt Mary's disposition, by manipulation of Mary's disposition, or by manipulation of circumstances which influenced her disposition, or by some other means beyond our imaginings. It doesn't matter how, or why- God's will was performed. He is God, and He gets his way.
The only instance I can recall where an active agent of Jehovah's will refused to do His will was in the case of Jonah. His refusal to go to render God's warning to the people of Nineveh, his free will decision to flee from his declared participation in God's will just caused him pain and suffering. His eventual consent, after God manipulated circumstances to effect his decision, was really rather rendered moot, wasn't it?
Now, whether that has direct bearing upon the circumstances involving Mary or not, I would leave to the good sense of the readers, but it would seem to me that once Jehovah has set His mind to do it, it will be done.
A question I would pose to RC generally: Why is Mary is exceptionally venerated when compared to every other agent of God's plan? For instance, shouldn't Jeremiah be exceptionally venerated? It was he that Jehovah declared He knew when he was being knitted in the womb (a very special designation not given to any other)... There is easily as much or more cause for his honor as there is for Mary's.
Why not the Patriarchs and the Prophets whose contributions were all so necessary to bring about the coming of our Lord? Truly, it could be argued that each provided a piece necessary to the whole, even as Mary did. Granted, Mary's participation was of a more personal physical nature, but all of them were deeply altered, all were subjected to pain and ridicule, and many died in the service of our Lord.
President Bush was roundly criticized for calling him "sir". After all, that shows a lack of respect for "His Holiness". Ha!
Pope's robe cut up for 100,000 'holy relics'
Now it is possible to "venerate" this "holy relic". Sad. Sad story.
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