Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
May God be with you in your sabbatical, and may your soul profit from it, by His will.
I left out . . . such things as . . . the just past big quake in China . . .
and an interesting prediction that a 9.5 quake will occur sometime in June just off the coast of China.
Another source or more asserts that a big one will hit San Diego.
Regarless of whether these specific predictions come true, or not . . . such things will be escalating alongside the geopolitical craziness.
In short—this is not a time to be . . . having rock throwing parties for the fun of it.
Tell me how your dictionary works. When there are multiple definitions and usages do they post the least important ones first? Or, is that just your way?
Much appreciated.
Thank you.
Likewise.
“I followed the discussion back to where the question was posed as a thought experiment.”
So moving on from the general Protestant assumption that the answer to the originally posed question regarding the time and manner of Jesus’ sacrifice is in fact “no,” let’s review the wedding at Cana.
Is it the assumption of Protestants that the Blessed Virgin brought the lack of wine to Jesus attention too early but some few minutes later was in fact the divinely appointed time for Jesus to begin his ministry?
Nobody said praying to Mary was in the Bible.
If "unbiblical" is supposed to mean non-biblical, every Catholic on this thread will agree with you. If it means anti-biblical, then it's up to you to prove that, and we already know you can't do it without appealing to something not in the Bible, such as an interpretation.
If you can go outside the actual text of the Bible such as with interpretation, then you don't have a leg to stand on when you say we can't go outside the actual text with our Sacred Traditions.
The bible tells us if we want the Holy Spirit, to just ask for it, so I do. I don’t beseech Him or beg Him. I just say fill me.
1 Cor 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2:9 But as it is written , Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
And I am sew glad you are.
Hey, could be!
“Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good. He says that the title Co-redemptrix “departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53). He also says that “for matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (54). “””
Dear netmilsmom,
It's going to be a matter of how the Church expresses this because it is the teaching of the Church
We can begin to see how in Pope Benedict's prayer to Our Lady of Sheshan on May 24th of this year.
“Virgin Most Holy, Mother of the Incarnate Word and our Mother, venerated in the Shrine of Sheshan under the title “Help of Christians,” the entire Church in China looks to you with devout affection. We come before you today to implore your protection. Look upon the People of God and, with a mother’s care, guide them along the paths of truth and love, so that they may always be a leaven of harmonious coexistence among all citizens.
When you obediently said “yes” in the house of Nazareth, you allowed God’s eternal Son to take flesh in your virginal womb and thus to begin in history the work of our redemption. You willingly and generously co-operated in that work, allowing the sword of pain to pierce your soul, until the supreme hour of the Cross, when you kept watch on Calvary, standing beside your Son, Who died that we might live.
From that moment, you became, in a new way, the Mother of all those who receive your Son Jesus in faith and choose to follow in His footsteps by taking up His Cross. Mother of hope, in the darkness of Holy Saturday you journeyed with unfailing trust towards the dawn of Easter. Grant that your children may discern at all times, even those that are darkest, the signs of God’s loving presence.
Our Lady of Sheshan, sustain all those in China, who, amid their daily trails, continue to believe, to hope, to love. May they never be afraid to speak of Jesus to the world, and of the world to Jesus. In the statue overlooking the Shrine you lift your Son on high, offering him to the world with open arms in a gesture of love. Help Catholics always to be credible witnesses to this love, ever clinging to the rock of Peter on which the Church is built. Mother of China and all Asia, pray for us, now and for ever. Amen!”-Pope Benedict XVI
Vatican Document http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/22144.php?index=22144&lang=it#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE
Also,if you follow Cardinal Ratzinger before he became Pope you will see that he is in agreement with Pope JP11 on this along with others like Fr William Most.
Whether or not it becomes Dogma or not is up to the Church guided by the Holy Spirit.
Dogma's reinforce and make concrete the historical consistent teaching of Church through the ages.
In many cases throughout history the Church declares a dogma to shut out the heretics from spreading their teachings to members of the church
An example would be when the Church declared that Jesus was God as dogma at the council of Nicea in 325 AD when the arian heresey was around. This was nearly 300 years after Christ's death. It does not mean that the Church did not already believe this. Of course it did! Jesus was worshiped during the liturgy. People prayed to Him during their daily prayers and through their actions. The Church already knew that Jesus was God - the Church defines that He was God infallibly based on the guidance of the Spirit already at work in the Church. The Church defines dogma to authoritative say what we believe, just like it did with the contents of Scripture.
Of course we always have the Catechism to make perfect sense of these things..
970 “Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”511 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source
While I recover you might want to meditate on how the negation of "'co' always means 'equal,'" is NOT "'co' never means 'equal'," but rather is "'co' sometimes means something other than "equal'."
That’s an old one, defconw. You’ve got to come up with something new. I wasn’t being sarcastic. I was just explaining how things are with the political/religious links. Sorry you’re offended but, that’s not MY problem.
I actually said “she’s dead, Jim,” not the Pope.
But is that a prayer? You know I’m asking because you said, or at least I understood you to say, that we shouldn’t pray to anyone but the Father. It seems to me addressing a request to the Holy Spirit is a prayer to Him.
As for Ratzinger is a Vatican pro. As head of the Office Of The Inquisition - oh wait - Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith (same office-different name) he confirmed the infallibility of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. I don't know how this works but apparently this one man is the Magisterium all rolled up into one person.
This man is a polished politician and you must be careful to analyze the words carefully. :)
Their anger comes from spiritual immaturity and frustration. When/if they truly focus on God they will be appalled at how self-centered they were.
So have I. I’ve loved Bahai’s, Buddhists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, etc. You have to separate them from their overall beliefs. All good people.
I love how you think you know how I feel. I am not offended. I really am not concerned how anyone feels about me on this forum. I don’t need you to explain how it works. I am not new. I was just making observations.
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