The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

There's no rule that says anyone MUST post the footnote numbers.

I didn't say anything about any rules. I refuted your false claim that you posted the exact words of the Catechism.

[Quix]

Reference by a pope, once or a hundred times, does not Catholic doctrine make.

= = =

However, it’s a lot different than a couple of altar boys dreaming up new RC dogma.

[1000 silverlings]

Well this seems to border on making it personal

Friday, June 06, 2008 4:55:22 AM · 3,125 of 3,391 papertyger to 1000 silverlings It starts at Genesis 1:1 and continues on to Revelation 22:21 Translation: It's not there, but sado-evangelists lack the integrity to admit such things. Post Reply | Private

[Petronski]

So you’re not going to ask?

Okay, I’ll ask.

Dr. Eckleburg, did Mary have the free will to say “no” to becoming the mother of Christ?

[Petronski]

If “Co-redemptrix” is doctrine of the Catholic Church, you can prove it.

[Petronski]

RCC catechism

Again with the allergy to capitalizing proper nouns related to Catholicism.

[papertyger]

Honoring the bible is unbiblical?

Adding to the Bible is not "honoring" it; it's attempting to give your own words the legitimacy of Scripture.

There is a lot more scripture about honoring scripture than about honoring mary.

And there is absolutely NO Scripture making sola scriptura a legitimate doctrine of the Church.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I didn't say "could have," I said "could."

Alrighty then. Let's correct my response according to your instruction...

PETRONSKI: So it is possible He could do whatever He wanted, despite what He would later write in the New Testament.

DR.E: If you base your faith on what Christ could have done do rather than on what He did do, well, good luck with that.

Christ could have turned turn Himself into a rooster and crowed at every dawn, but I doubt He did does.

Any way you want to write the tense, your comment is still meaningless.

That is why God gave us the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit and new eyes and new ears and a new heart and a renewed mind -- so men can understand the truth of Christ risen...even without a dictionary.

[Quix]

Aaaarrrrggghhhhhhh

Sure. Prayers.

[Petronski]

Any way you want to write the tense, your comment is still meaningless.

The meaning eludes you, but it is there.

[Religion Moderator]

It is not “making it personal” for the same reason. He accuses a group whether actual or theoretical, not another Freeper specifically. If a post exists on this forum, or a website linked to this forum, which attaches that label to a specific Freeper there will be consequences.

[papertyger]

Read what was said before that so you can understand the post. Cheezzzz.

What are you claiming I missed?

[1000 silverlings]

okay, thank you very much

[Quix]

I have always loved the RC’s I’ve known in and out of the RC edifice.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I think there's a Scripture about 'their own words shall condemn them.'

Yes, and those words were spoken by that son of the "Queen of Heaven," so I hope they count for something, since the "Queen of Heaven" didn't say them herself (although we're told she "cooperated" in them)...

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37

[dan1123]

Sometimes, I think the RC edifice is an institution built on wiggle room.

I'm seeing that here too.

[netmilsmom]

>>Do you really not understand how this kind of meaningless back-and-forth is just deflecting any real discussions of the words themselves and what they actually mean?

Thankfully, anyone reading these posts can see what’s occuring...over and over and over.<<

Yup and the people reading this, who have any doubts can go back to the thread and read for themselves!!! Let the credibility show from the actual posts.

That thread is “Do Protestants consider Roman Catholics Christians?”

And my Dear Sister in Christ, just remember, it was not I who brought the whole thing up. But it is I that will direct posters to the ACTUAL thread to see for themselves.

[dan1123]

How was disrespecting her wishes in front of a crowd following the spirit of “honour thy father and thy mother?” What higher point would have been made by that?

Fulfillment of the Law by the One True Lamb in the final act of God in the salvation of humanity is not a "higher point" than "honoring Mary"? Who is Mary compared to God?

[papertyger]

What do you call a piece of wood?

A book.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The children of Israel wanted a god they could control, so they collected all of their gold and made a calf.

RC's want to avoid God, so they hide behind Mary's skirt, not daring to peek out at what really happened throughout redemptive history.

I fear for their eternal destiny.

Yep. Thankfully we know it's all in His hands.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." -- Romans 6:5-11