Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Does the prospect threaten you?
The link you posted IS NOT a teaching of the Church.
And ALL of the Protestants here are aware of this and some of them probably even understand it, but that doesn’t seem to keep them from pretending otherwise.
Peter implied he would get in the way of God's will, Jesus rebuked him just like anyone else. Why is this so complicated?
I am SEW calm! zzzzzzzzzz
I don’t think anyone assumed Christ would have come down from the cross. I followed the discussion back to where the question was posed as a thought experiment. Perhaps I missed where someone answered yes.
Obviously the Pharisees are alive and well in 2008. If they have seen figures like Mother Theresa, who established Sisters of Charity and worked who fingers to the bone, in the name of God's love, and Mel Gibson, who's love of God inspired the Passion of Christ movie, and Pope John Paul, who although he lived under the constant threat of death, worked to free people from communism, just to name a few, and still think we are somehow evil; then there is nothing we can say on FreeRepublic to explain ourselves here.
So the question is, how can we do a better job at helping the "tepid souls" in this crazy world we live with their formation. Sometimes we do take our faith for granted. The more I see the actions of some of these supposedly Godly posters, the more I realize how blessed we are. I have seen Emmaus retreats fill people with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps promoting those retreats? Someone mentioned the Come Holy Spirit prayer. Any other ideas?
Here's a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope: When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).
And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary's intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, "also a contribution to the Redemption of us all" (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the "Coredemptrix."
It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.
I was referring to the proposition that Jesus had indeed blandly snubbed his mother, rather than finishing his teaching before seeing her, as Torah would permit.
I was referring to the proposition that Jesus had indeed blandly snubbed his mother, rather than finishing his teaching before seeing her, as Torah would permit.
It was assumed either way. My take on the subject was a definite “No” or “Sorry, can’t do that”.
Join the Knights of Columbus....if you’re male.
What does any of the have to do with Mary?
Is that a prayer to the Holy Spirit?
Sigh. Too true.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, Dogs and Cats . . .
I hope to post some excerpts from Duplantis’s book: HEAVEN CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE GOD KIND . . . from his 5 earth hours in Heaven . . . within 24 hours.
Some of you are aware that our go arounds hereon about RC issues grieve me more than they energize or thrill me.
I’m the sort of personality that likes intense exchanges but these kinds of things weary the bones.
I have not known how to or have not succeeded heretofore in discerning a viable-to-me therefore what.
However, DarthVader just now in a phoncon has helped push that further.
As Duplantis notes on p129 “Satan’s greatest ally is our division in the Body of Christ. I think Jesus wants us, the Church to be looking more at Who He is instead of focusing on our differences.”
While I’ve always known that was a high priority, I’ve also felt torn between that and the inner press to also stand up for THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL . . . and against gross destructive error. Otherwise, I’d not have bothered with these threads.
Along side these prayerful ponderings has been the growing awareness that history is rushing to a climax under our feet.
Highly connected folks like John Bolton and a host of others are signaling that Iran must be attacked.
If Iran is attacked, I’m convinced that the Jihadi’s will set of nukes already in place in US cities . . . most sources say at least 7 U.S. cities.
All that will quickly evolve into global nuclear exchanges with Russia, China, Mexico, No Korea, Iran, et al attacking CONUS.
Certainly the puppet masters seem to be seriously intent on crashing the dollar. Some say to bring in the Amero.
There are a diversity of sources asserting that the globalists are determined to have in place by the end of 2009 mechanisms to insure the starvation of 2 Billion people. Those who doubt their determination to reduce the world population to 500 million should check out the Georgia Guidestones.
The price of fuel carefully engineered to be escalating off the scale will certainly price much food out of the reach of many.
Against all this, we have two idiot globalists vying for President with one of them as rabid a Marxist as ever chronically deceived through his teeth and the other one a frightful collection of junk pretending to be a Republican.
In short, Mr Roberts’ neighborhood is going to be changing dramatically sooner than any of us would prefer.
THEREFORE,
I’m going to endeavor to avoid the combative postings I’ve engaged in so vigorously in such threads as this for 90 days. . . . which would be about 6 SEP 2008.
It may be that occasionally a post or thread will trigger a burning urge in my spirit requiring a response. But on the whole, I will earnestly endeavor to avoid all such combative, contentious posting for 90 days.
Those who truly LOVE JESUS ABOVE ALL ELSE . . . MUST work against satan and his forces in MUCH MORE UNITY of spirit in The Lord’s Blood and Spirit.
Yes, I know some of the distinctives are still outrageously stated, defended, serious differences etc. However, God is God and always will be God. Our vain pontificating is not likely to change anything any sooner than such has changed in the last 2000 years.
I suspect some RC’s will be gleeful at this news and feel they’ve achieved somehow, a great victory. That would be a most unwise attitude on their part. Those are the kinds of attitudes and responses that God pays a lot of attention to.
I suspect my prayer potency during this period will be upped a notch or two. One of my prayers will likely be along the lines of asking that God will draw all willing hearts who truly Love Him Surpassingly above all else will join such a stance—and that others open to being drawn into loving God above all else will be clearly and forcefully drawn into such a stance.
And, that those who are more given to just being contentious for contentiousness sake . . . or for vain, haughty ‘WE’RE RIGHT, YOU’RE WRONG’ sake will be disciplined firmly and clearly of The Lord until they change their tune.
I suspect some of my dear brothers and sisters on the Protty side will be annoyed with me or worse. Sorry. This is something I’ve been brooding about for months. Duplantis’ book and DarthVader’s phoncon merely pushed me over the line of decision.
There is also the issue of using more of the time for face to face and other more tangible, functional outreach efforts in the social settings where we live and function day by day.
It is conceivable that the more energetic of us hereon COULD change the whole tone of the Rel Forum greatly more to the benefit of The Gospel than all our bickering would ever achieve. But it would take some dogged determination and a tanker full of humility AND TRUST IN GOD.
IF, as I’m convinced, this is God’s priority for more than me . . . at this time . . . THEN GOD will attend to the outrageously destructive distinctives in the ‘out-group’ in His ways and in His times.
He IS God. We are not.
There is an insideous deceptive horrific bunch of crud in ALL bureaucratic RELIGIOUS clubs—including Christian clubs/denominations. And too much such in most congregations of every brand and flavor.
GOD WILL BE CLEANING HOUSE probably sooner than we think . . . in all groups. His Scripture declares that judgment will BEGIN with the house of God.
DarthVader received a word from The Lord from I think Jeremiah . . . about The Lord having no pleasure in His people at this time. I think that’s frightfully too true in case after case.
That grieves me to my bonemarrow.
Some might say—Oh, goodness! What’ll I do for fun, now!?
Yeah, well . . . creative serving one another can be pretty exciting if we’ll pay the price, get out of our Laz-Y-Boys and do it, by God’s Grace and Spirit.
And there are usually more than a few hurting around needing more than a little loving. Too many of us hardly reach out to even our neighbors much at all.
I often ask my students and others in my social network . . .
HOW CAN I LOVE YOU BETTER?
I suspect all of us have folks we need to ask that to and insist on answers from—and then act accordingly.
I should also repent for being more combative and contentious at times than was called for. I do so repent of that.
Does this mean I’m wimping out on the truths God has made real to me? Not at all. It would be a serious mistake to assume that.
It means I’m leaving overwhelmingly more in God’s hands all the distinctives I’ve felt so constrained to pontificate about for so long. And I’ll earnestly endeavor to put the time and energy into building up folks’ relationship with God and with all who love God above all else.
I might even pray more.
It’s been lovely. Feel free to ping me to whatever. Please avoid any personal offense if I fail to comment.
God’s highest to all who love Him. And may those who don’t learn to love Him soonest.
LUB,
BLPH,
So not answering an obviously flawed application of a verse is a trend to you?
If YOU have the mind of Christ, and having the mind of Christ means YOU don’t need to be instructed, because that’s the same as having the mind of the Lord, then YOU have to explain why the Holy Spirit is guiding so many into division.
The Scripture is not gnostic; your intepretation is.
forgot to ping you to the above.
We’ll continue to keep you in our prayers.
RD
Dre-”But that hasn’t stopped Catholics on this forum from saying Mary is on the cross with Christ and helping Him to save His sheep”
Has any Catholic on this forum said such a thing? If so let us educate them.
Catechism of the Catholic Church: and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross.
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