Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I would suggest that Pastor you saw was a few eggs short of an omelet. No Lutheran teaching requires one to be willing to die for Martin Luther like one would for Christ. I find that just absolutely bizarre. If any Lutheran Pastor told me that I'd walk out too. We believe in the Augsburg Confessions, that, and Luther's Catechisms, are essential teachings of the Lutheran Faith - but that's no different than the Catholic Catechism except that we are not threatened with mortal sin and hellfire if we disagree with some of what's in it, etc.
Geez, what a disservice that Pastor did by saying something like that to you. That's just bizarre.
Nope. As I said later on in the other thread, news concerning the Pope interested me. And I thought it only proper to ping the holders of the Catholic ping list to articles dealing with the Pope or the Catholic Church. Any 'leaning' on my part only occurred within the previous month.
Second, this post suggests you have been lurking for some time. Correct?
Only within the last few days. I did some reading of a few other threads and culled together Protestant and Catholic vantage points on this issue.
Do you "revere" your hero's to the extent that a new term, let's call it "hyper reverence" must be developed to explain the depth of your reverence?
I don't follow. Your point?
None of the "revered" persons you have mentioned have Shrines built to honor them, have appeared in visions and have given "secrets" to save the world, and are the recipients of "worship" from some. (Though it is not 'official' teaching it cannot be denied there is such a thing as Mary Worship). You are comparing apples and oranges in comparing the Hyper-Dulia "reverance" shown to Mary and your "mortal" hero's.
True. But then again, is that what the Catholic Church teaches? Judging by the responses on the thread, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Finally, you appear to be shocked by the differing opinions and bickering generated by your first thread. If you want only Catholic supporting replies you should seriously consider closing the thread.
Only in how quickly the subject got away, given it was my first ever thread on the Religion forum (I've since learned that wasn't the case). For this particular subject - Mary - I wanted it to be open.
I never, truly understood the experience until I read, "The Hound of Heaven".
Now, on this point, I will concede agreement with you. And if this were all there was to the Catholic Church that I was required to attend/believe without threat of hellfire and damnation, then I would be a Catholic. Unfortunately, not so.
It happened in September, 1970, in a Lutheran Church in north St. Louis county where my husband was church organist at the time. Sorry I can’t remember the name of the place, or I’d tell you that, too.
Rob took a job with the Presbyterians, after that episode. Then the elders of that same Lutheran church paid a call on him, and told him he was no longer a member, shortly before our marriage that December.
Actually they align themselves with the Restoration Movement.
Welcome to the Restoration Movement Pages
These pages are for your reading and viewing pleasure and feature historical texts, pictures, resources for historical research and links to other relevant pages dealing with the Restoration Movement. This nineteenth-century unity and restitution effort by Barton W. Stone and Thomas and Alexander Campbell spawned several distinct religious groups: the Churches of Christ, the Christian Churches, and the Disciples of Christ. The wider historical context also includes the Christian Churches of James O'Kelly and the Christian Connexion of Elias Smith and Abner Jones. The Restoration Movement pages seek to accommodate the historical heritage of all of these religious traditions.
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The Restoration Movement is not part of the Sola Scriptura Tradition. They are not a Reformation Protestant Church. In fact they are not Protestant at all. They are a break off of people who claim that they have restored the Christian Church to its original 1st Century church.
I doubt very seriously that you were grounded in Reformation Theology at that church. I doubt very seriously if they ever mentioned the 5 Solas at that church and I doubt they ever claimed to be of the "Sola Scriptura" tradition.
Never heard anything so bizarre. That is not the LCMS I grew up in or that I belong to today. Not even close. That sounds almost cult-like.
I don't have an answer for that one except that it must have been some very ultra-conservative congregation of some kind into some sort of uber-Protestantism. (Sola Scriptura, Sieg Heil!). That, however, is not the typical LCMS Church I don't think, and it's certainly not the one I know. Not at all. I would have left that church too.
The flip side is, the Catholic Church parish near me, that I have looked into, seems uber-liberal. Like, "liberation theology" liberal. I could never belong to that kind of Catholicism.
Can you be more specific about which beliefs you hold that would threaten you with hellfire and damnation, according to the Catholic Church? Setting aside the question of Luther, for the moment, if possible. I ask this because my dear Lutheran MIL loved attending the mass with us. She said it reminded her of the church of her childhood...
I utterly reject liberation theologians too. They disgust me as well.
Hmmm....we have areas of agreement.....
Reg, I do know that the co-pilot can do the same things as the pilot. I was addressing the “co” not the duties. My point still stands ... but I’ll amend it just for you, my friend ... even though the pilot can do the same duties as the pilot (not saying Mary can do the same things Jesus does), who has seniority?
Thanks for the ping.
Couldn't agree more!
The problem is not with those ask the Father to have so and so (Mary) pray for them.
The problem is in praying to Mary.
It is the same with our blessed mother. Jesus gave her to all his disciples. She is our spiritual mother. For all those that can walk their spiritual path by themselves, God Bless them. My spiritual Mother was there for me, she brought me to Jesus. Thank God.
I understand when people don't have the same faith walk as mine, it does hurt me however when our beliefs and experiences our either misinterpreted or slandered for lack of understanding. My Catholic church has been around for over 2008 years because God allowed it, Luther rebelled because God allowed it. It is as simple as that. The enemy will always attack the most important to God's kingdom, so let's remember to love each other regardless of our differences. Please.
One could make a strong case for a connection between Mormonism and the restorationist movement.
They both decided that the church had failed. In fact, the restorationists (turn of 1800’s) preceded Joseph Smith, and the focus of Stone and Campbell would have been known to Smith’s area of New York.
They are, of course, different, but there was the common belief that the church had failed. There was also the common insistance that the church have a Christian name. Thus, we get Church of Christ, Christian Church....and “Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints.”
That was no accident.
We are to pray only to God.
I’m a firm believer in the true unity of true Christians.
Doesn't matter. It's false whether it overture, intermezzo or coda.
...he started with attacks against abuses of the Church, starting with "indulgences". The Church wasn't having any of it, and wanted to burn him at the stake. They didn't want to be questioned. Period.
Do not pretend the Catholic Church had no beef with Luther but indulgences.
They were all heretics? They were all demonically inspired?
The ones signing on to sola scriptura or sola fide were.
Why didn't they send their best theologians to defend against his arguments? (Because they couldn't, they knew indulgences were wrong and nothing but a money making scheme, just like "buying" people out of "Purgatory").
Indulgences are not wrong. Selling them is.
. That came straight from God, and of that I have no doubt.
You don't, but you should.
Any pastor who says that is not only a fool, but also quite wrong.
That is very interesting. In my Catholic faith only God can really determine who is truly "Christian" and enters the kingdom of heaven. Regardless we are taught we must love and be neighbors to all, regardless of our personal opinions of their "true" faith.
It’s not possible to have Christian unity when one of the parties is not a Christian. That is even the position of the RCCs, proven in that there are churches that they don’t accept.
I’d say they had done some judging/evaluating to be able to label some acceptable and others not acceptable.
I think you raise a legitimate issue. I have pondered this belief as well.
I don't think, by attributing the ability to intercede, we are attributing omnipresence. It doesn't necessarily follow. Omnipresence would encompass much more than the ability to hear prayers. Being able to hear someone's prayer request seems, to me anyway, a small and limited facet of what omnipresence entails.
I also wonder if it is fitting to apply our concepts of reality to the the after-life. I mean, our constructs just may not apply at all. We can conjecture and speculate, but our knowlege may be too limiting. I think it helpful to consider the shock an infant experiences when it emerges from its mother's watery womb into the world of light and air. So it may be for us. When we leave this world, our destination and its conditions may very well be utterly inconceivable. The laws and conditions that govern our world and this earthly experience just may not be applicable in heaven.
And yet we have all this antecdotal evidence that there is something to this intercessory prayer stuff. Centuries of it. In my own case, I had been looking for a job for a few months, a particular kind of job with specific conditions that would not interfere with other things I needed to do with my life at this time. It was a tall order and very unrealistic. My financial situation was becoming desperate when I happened upon a link that a Freeper had provided to "Mary, Undoer of Knots." I felt I had a knot that needed to be undone, so I offered a prayer to Our Lady under that title. A few days later I had landed a job that met my precise conditions and has surpassed my expectations. The knot was undone.
Naturally, I'm tempted to write it off as dumb luck, coincidence, and ponder the inevitable questions. Does God care where I work? Does Mary really have anything to do with it? Or by being skeptical am I limiting God's love? Am I applying my incomplete knowledge to things I am incapable of conceiving?
Anyway, it makes interesting food for thought.
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