Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
>>Ya know—that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that. I think I know a good deal more former RC’s than I know current RC’s.<<
I know tons more RC converts than Protestants. I guess it’s who we know, where we hang out and where we go to church.
Honestly, not that there is anything wrong with Protestants, just I know more RC converts. Some really militant ones too!
Exactly! You are sooo right. We’re not the ones who invented her as coredemptrix.
Hmmmm
the
All in All is not in RC . . . flexible texts?
Are you speaking of your church?
Neither is the Catholic Church.
>>The belief is that the Annunciation is not the moment when Mary consented to bring our Savior into the world, but rather that the Annunciation was the moment when Mary was told what was about to be done to her (consent or not).<<
Who said that Petronski?
I’m having problems going back and finding it.
The words “Done to her” creep me out.
He does hear me but Jesus is the mediator, not the Holy Spirit. I never pray to Him.
If you recall, the point you were struggling to make was that I must have been posting from some hate site. It was proven I was posting from vatican.va.
If vatican.org had been some dastardly hate site, you'd have a point.
But as you so aptly showed us all, vatican.org DOES NOT EVEN EXIST!
The same assault was leveled at Old Reggie last night as RC posters accused him of posting from hate sites, even after he showed you he was posting directly from Catholic websites.
You people need to realize no one here has to post from any hate site. The vatican's own words, the RCC's own catechism, Rome's own apologists, all clearly display the arrogant, unScriptural errors of the magisterium for anyone with eyes to see.
It’s not a quote, it’s a restatement of the Calvinist view of the predestination of Mary.
Mary was the mother of the Christ child. Christ alone died for our sins. Christ alone was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Christ alone redeems the fallen sinner, which includes Mary.
Christ is God. Mary is not God, regardless of how much Rome would like that lie to be true.
Christ was particularly tender toward children and others . . .
and particularly fierce toward know-it-all, arrogant RELIGIOUS leaders who construed their RELIGIOUS rules and dogma to be THE supreme RELIGIOUS reality always residing in the lofty heights way above all others.
I think I’ll continue to endeavor to follow Christ on those scores.
The attempt is a vacuous fraud, yet despite countless corrections and demonstrations, the attempt persisted and will no doubt persist still.
Some of the Catholics themselves have tried to do the super-elevation. We didn’t pull the expression “Co-Redemptrix” out of our own bag of words.
= = =
INDEED.
I think addiction to idolatry is like a lot of other addictions . . . always seeking MORE, MORE, MORE to get a fix.
Some people interpret Catholic teaching exactly as they interpret the Bible. Through that same dark glass of their own preconceptions, misconceptions and their own ego.
When it comes down to it, it is all about ego and has nothing to do with Christ. It is all about thinking that they can even know the dispostitions of souls.
Unlike most Catholics they convict others, not themselves. Catholics know they are sinful and that the only way they can be sin-free and eventually perfected is through Christ, Our Lord, whose great Sacrifice made our salvation real.
This reminds me of the story of the Pharisee that was thinking about how wonderful he was before God.
AMEN!
God alone knows the heart, but some of these fruits are pretty rotten.
That points to an interesting observation. People cannot hide who they really are forever. Eventually, our fruits are known, whether they are of God or not.
No, that’s how little I think of false doctrines and those that defend them.
= = =
Ahhhhhhhhhhh.
Then it should not be such a huge leap to at least imagine some empathetic understanding of how Prottys feel toward a lot of RC edifice stuff.
She certainly is. Did she have the free will to say no or not?
Mary was the mother of the Christ child.
True. She also IS the mother of God.
Christ alone died for our sins.
You agree with Catholicism.
Christ alone was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
You agree with Catholicism.
Christ alone redeems the fallen sinner, which includes Mary.
Mary was conceived immaculate and born sinless, by the power of God.
Christ is God.
You agree with Catholicism.
Mary is not God...
You agree with Catholicism.
...regardless of how much Rome would like that lie to be true.
You choose to punctuate that post with a blatant falsehood.
Not by themselves it doesn't.
The OT scripture tells tells how the people before scripture was written were saved. They trusted God. They looked forward to the Saviors coming, we look back to it.
Then how can you use that verse to require anything but the OT?
>>I find it pretty funny that the only thing you have to high-five in this discussion is that one time I mistakenly wrote vatican.org for vatican.va.<<
I wasn’t “High-fiving” a thing. I was making a correction and a reference to the Actual thread so everyone could read it. It’s the “Do Protestants think that Catholics are Christians?” With a search for that post, anyone can read the facts. And I will let the facts speak for themselves.
>>If you recall, the point you were struggling to make was that I must have been posting from some hate site. It was proven I was posting from vatican.va.<<
No, I said that a Google search of the exact quote gave only links to Anti-Catholic sites and then reposted the link, Many times. It was not proven that on the first post you were posting from Vatican.va because there were no number to place the footnotes. Only on your second attempt did these materialize.
>>If vatican.org had been some dastardly hate site, you’d have a point.<<
Only when I pointed out that the name Vatican.org was owned by some Canadian guy, did you realize your mistake.
>>But as you so aptly showed us all, vatican.org DOES NOT EVEN EXIST!<<
But you stated that you quoted from it two times before I pointed that fact out.
>>The same assault was leveled at Old Reggie last night as RC posters accused him of posting from hate sites, even after he showed you he was posting directly from Catholic websites. <<
I NEVER said that. NEVER. And I think that it’s time to stop attributing motives to me that were not mine.
First it is against the rules and second it’s wrong.
Period.
Your motive is suspect.
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