The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[defconw]

Of course you are right. Unfortunately my name is not Job! :)

[mgist]

Are there specific prayers for to call souls to Christ, or simply spontaneous prayer? Which Scott Hahn books to you recommend?

[Quix]

Again, the RC wants it both ways.

= = =

Actually, they seem to want it 12 ways to Sunday . . . Somewhat like LDS . . . initially saying that LDS doctrine is just like ______________ whatever the prospect’s background is . . .

In the case of the RC’s . . . they have so many centuries of convoluted dogmatic manipulations of truth with falsehood . . . they can point almost at will to some kosher document and insist that THAT is the truth per the Roman Clique of RELIGIOUS Political Power-mongering.

Very convenient.

Slippery plus rubbery makes for very crafty discussants and Rabbit Hole theologians.

[Quix]

They have nothing
to hold onto,
no anchor.
They even get
“the Rock”
wrong.
After that,
it’s
all
shifting sand.

INDEED.

Perhaps that's a major reason that the fantasized anchor of the Mary caricature's lap is so fiercly important to them.

Somewhere in the depths of their semi-consciousness . . . they know that Rabbit Hole Theology by Power-Mongering Committee affords no secure anchor and no sure connection to THE REAL ROCK.

[netmilsmom]

>>I think SAM’S has the best prices on Tempurpedic. Since I sleep in a single bed, I got a king one paycheck and doubled it over.<<

REALLY?!?

I might just go there. I have a card.

[mgist]

Todays Gospel Reflection

Gospel Mk 12:35-37

As Jesus was teaching in the temple area he said, “How do the scribes claim that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said: The Lord said to my lord, ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.’ David himself calls him ‘lord’; so how is he his son?” The great crowd heard this with delight. ion

[Quix]

That deep-seated emptiness must be filled with something. So it gets filled with physical sensations like incense and incantations and kneeling pads, and earthly hoops to jump through like performing penance to atone for sins already paid for by Christ, and monastic men standing before you who are named as "another Christ," and moldy relics and icons to kneel before, and wooden statues to pray to, and the physicality of the Lord's Supper trumping its spiritual truth, and most especially this unseemly, unScriptural adoration of Mary which very nearly sounds like some weird incestuous relationship whereby the mother and Son are on the cross together.

I read some of the catechism tonight concerning Mary and the language is really bizarre.

INDEED. Bears posting again.

[Quix]

the RCC believes a word can mean any number of things depending on the time of day and the turning of the moon.

And which way the white hanky is fluttering.

[defconw]

Hahn has written so many books. They are all really good. I would say for the lukewarm, "The Lamb's Supper", "Catholic for a Reason", "Rome Sweet Rome" and "Hail Holy Queen" for starters.

He also has a series on video of studying the Bible and it was awesome but not for beginners. I can't think of the name of the series. It was just outstanding.

As for prayer this is one I like.

Come, Holy Spirit

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.

V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created.

R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray. O God, Who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise, and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

[netmilsmom]

>>The links came from vatican.va which we were told last week was the internet mouthpiece of the Vatican.
Today, apparently that has changed.
No surprise there.
Next week, it’ll probably be back to square one...again.<<

That’s kind of odd reasoning. By your reasoning, everything reported on the Vatican.va website is from the Vatican. No Catholic said it, you did. Yes, on dogma, a person better have a Vatican.va reference. So...
http://vatican.mondosearch.com/search.aspx

According to this search, the Vatican causes the weather.
Wow, that’s more power than the Catholics give the Vatican!!!!

[Quix]

Dishonoring is an incorrect term . . .

Whatever GOD asserts, by definition, is honorable and fitting to all concerned.

When God The Son refused to attend to His waiting Mother and half-brothers, as He noted that those who did the will of The Father were His close relatives . . .

THAT affirmation that Mary had completed her historical task and was now fittingly assigned the same POSITIONAL relationship ONLY as high as all others who did the will of The Father—THAT AFFIRMATION was an eternal emphatic statement about Mary’s positional place with Him being ESSENTIALLY EQUAL to all other obedient believers.

That was not dishonoring, per se.

It was affirming that all earnest obedient believers had the SAME positional relationship TO HIM, that Mary did.

It was quite a stark declaration.

Though some Prottys realize that the Vatican black ‘no-see-through’ glasses prevent vast numbers of RC’s from seeing such truth in Scripture.

I do, however, have compassion for those RC’s who really struggle with this cognitive challenge of

SAME VS DIFFERENT

construct.

[Quix]

The children of Israel wanted a god they could control, so they collected all of their gold and made a calf.

RC’s want to avoid God, so they hide behind Mary’s skirt, not daring to peek out at what really happened throughout redemptive history.

I fear for their eternal destiny.

= = =

Well said and a fitting concern, imho.

[mgist]

Thank you! I love that prayer. I learned it in a Regnum Christi, FAMILIA course, and that prayer is very special to me. For some reason I didn’t associate that prayer with my question to you. TKC!

[Quix]

By that logic . . .

distractions, diversions, clutter in the picture . . .

?HELP?

one focus SUPREMELY INTENTLY ONLY ON GOD???

Rabbit Hole Theology strikes again.

[Quix]

Glad you’re still chipper.

Gotta watch those deadly conference rooms. They can turn one into a walking zombie in record time.

Thankfully, few of them are smoke filled any more.

[defconw]

Well I am glad I jogged your memory. Well I guess I must get ready for work now. God Bless, it’s been nice chatting with you. I’ll check in this afternoon.

[Quix]

It’s conceivable that some under the RC banner are evil just as some in every Christian club are evil . . . as well as some in virtually every congregation.

However, it’s not the RC individuals that I am concerned about being evil—it’s the

INSTITUTIONAL DOGMA, EDICTS, PRACTICES, MODEL, etc. distracting and diverting individuals’ focus askew from

GOD ALONE BEING EACH INDIVIDUAL’S ALL IN ALL.

[Quix]

I don’t mean to sound harsh. I am just tired of all the threads on here that are posted solely for the purpose of bashing us. I thought this was a political forum.

= = =

Evidently there’s a lack of awareness of the criteria, boundaries and spirit of the

[OPEN]

threads.

Those who are uncomfortable with the vigorous intensity are strongly invited . . . exhorted . . . at times ordered

to stay off them.

[netmilsmom]

>>and once<<

Once? Once?? You had no clue Vatican.org didn’t exist until I told you.

LOLOLOL!!!!!

Yup, and the google search string, with your quote, a true link, was posted BY ME that had no Catholic sites. And tons of people saw it, not just the regular people on these threads because of the subject matter. Someone looked a bit foolish and it wasn’t me. The PMs connected with that whole thing were pretty funny, from people I had never spoken to before!!!! Asking why that mistaken poster didn’t just give it up, why she continued to dance when proven wrong!!! LOLOLOL!!!

Can’t change history FRiend. That is the FACT of that thread. Period.

The problem is that people are fighting so hard to be right that they don’t think. If someone tells the truth about it, it can be forgotten. The lie will be referenced back to the thread. Easy to find! It’s the “Do Protestant’s think that Roman Catholics are Christians” that made so many Non-Catholics say “Yes, don’t be silly.” And some others squirm!!!!!

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

Amen to your points.