Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
NOT to me.
I don’t find the RC contentions about the RC edifice’s authority re the teachings of the church to be built on anything but
—mangled history
—mangled Bibles
—mangled logic
—mangled theology
—fantasized dogma created out of whole cloth for dubious to outrageous reasons.
Sounds like an exquisitely rationalized bunch of mumbo-jumbo to excuse idolatry, to me.
Obviously the Pharisees are alive and well in 2008. If they have seen figures like Mother Theresa, who established Sisters of Charity and worked who fingers to the bone, in the name of God's love, and Mel Gibson, who love of God inspired tha Passion of Christ, and Pope John Paul, who although he lived under the constant threat of death, worked to free people from communism, just to name a few, and still think we are somehow evil; then there is nothing we can say on FreeRepublic to explain ourselves here.
So the question is, how can we do a better job at helping our "lukewarm" friends and family in there formation. The truth is that a lot of us do take our faith for granted. I have seen Emmaus retreats fill people with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps promoting those retreat? Any other ideas?
Cardinal Newman’s a heavyweight in the field, certainly.
Still . . . it boils down to
a very political bureaucratic process.
Very unimressive, personally.
I think there’s a Scripture about
‘their own words shall condemn them.’
unless I’m imagining it.
I get tired of people whining to me because they don't know their faith. I know it, because it's important to me and I study it.
I don't mean to sound harsh. I am just tired of all the threads on here that are posted solely for the purpose of bashing us. I thought this was a political forum.
This compulsion of the RC edifice to return believers to the 2 foot thick curtain hiding the Holy of Holies that Christ's death rent top to bottom
indicates to me that the origin of such efforts comes from the pit of hell.
God created man for fellowship.
Even at the Tent of Meeting God sought to have dialogue with any individual who cared to come. The Children of Israel pleaded !NO! We are afraid! Let Moses be our intermediary!
God, annoyed, nevertheless obliged.
He also at the appointed time sent His only Son Jesus TO RESTORE THAT BOLD OPPORTUNITY TO APPROACH THE THRONE OF GRACE DIRECTLY via Christ.
Christ DIED, BLED HORRIBLY, SUFFERED HORRIBLY that every individual on the planet could approach God in intmacy, directly.
And, yet, the RC edifice PRESUMES to throw all that back in God's face and say--NO! WE DON'T WANT YOUR TENT OF MEETING DIALOGUE; WE DON'T WANT YOUR DIRECT ACCESS TO JESUS!
We prefer Mary's lap, thank you very much, indeed! Harumph!
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And you honestly expect rational Prottys to believe that God is pleased with such maneuvers?
A lot of us Prottys can be pretty thickheaded but we aren't THAT dumb!
We are also not so thickheaded as to be unable to tell the difference--the very stark and enormous DIFFERENCE between Christ THE appointed INTERCESSOR and mere human prayers one for another.
I realize that RC's seem to have this great cognitive difficutly appropriating proper use of the two concepts: SAME VS DIFFERENT. Perhaps they need to try harder to grasp it.
Nowhere in Scripture is anyone directed to pray to anyone other than the Triune God.
= = =
Now, Dr. E. . . . we have to be fair . . .
1. Remember all in Heaven are subsurvient to the Chief Political Power-Monger in Rome. God has to wait in line until the messages trickle down . . . or is it trickle up?
2. The only reasons the convoluted dogma about prefering the hapless RELIGIOUS serfs to pray through Mary is that God was so busy elevating Mary to be 99.99999999999999999999999% equal to Jesus that He forgot to instruct Holy Spirit to insert it in the very elastic RC Scriptures.
3. And this notion of praying directly to the Triune God . . . welllllll, it’s really passe. It was a novel idea tossed around the Board Room in Heaven for a while. But eventually, the Chief Political Power-Monger in Rome sent up the edict that Heaven had to submit to everything going through Mary—preferably after such prayers have been cleared by the local Roman bureaucrat.
I hear you brother. I know that we are basically taught to be a light of God through our example, and prayer. While I know that is true, because I have learned so much from some amazing faithfull Catholic people, I think we should do more. People aren’t always aware of what is available to them. There are a lot of Catholics who have been completely turned off by religion. The media has done a really good job as portraying us as either deviant, opportunistic televangelists, or some kind of extreme Christian fundamentalists. Look at us fighting with each other. We have to do a better job as Catholics in helping people know God’s love. Maybe it just requires prayer? I don’t know.
Next week, it’ll probably be back to square one...again.
= = =
INDEED.
Just keep in mind that when the RC edifice says ‘back to square one,’
they REALLY mean back to square ~395 AD . . . they are just loath to admit it.
said millions of times a day . . .
Uhhhhh, how is that UNlike the vain repetitions of the heathen Christ spoke of?
But we see now where the concept of “co-redeemer” comes from — directly from the RCC catechism.
= = =
That’s one of the last stops in it’s root. As I understand it, the journey begins in a rather warm, dark throne-room.
Huh. Repetition is only a problem if it’s vain.
= = =
Hmmmmm . . . as in vainly repeating X or XX numbers of times . . . in a kind of
I’M SUFFICIENT TO EARN MY OWN SALVATION through my MUMMY MARY
kind of practice?
Prayer can do wonders. I know you know that. I have had good experiences with getting a group together to read a book and discuss it. We have done it at the parish and at private homes. Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid are my favorites for the folks who have fallen behind in knowledge.
They have no defense at all.
= = =
Which, of course, explains all the flurry tactics and gigantic convolutions through the Rabbit Hole to derive some fantasized justification out of whole cloth.
It’s from the Vatican about something else.
Like the weather report. The Vatican doesn’t cause the weather, but their documents report on it.
Prayers/worship offered to anyone other that God, regardless of intent, were often met with utter destruction.
Exactly so. And yet they don’t seem concerned. Sad.
INDEED.
I can give the RC’s some . . . measure of something based on God’s super graciousness and the principle that ACCORDING TO ONE’S FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO THEM.
However, there’s tons of junk from the RC edifice regarding prayer and routes of prayer that I think God is more than a little disgusted with. In those areas, no amount of faith will mollify God’s displeasure.
One can have 100% faith that the train is going to San Diego when, in fact, it’s going to San Francisco.
The drip, drip, drip treatment has begun. How many years did they just “talk” about the bodily Assumption.
One day you were allowed to disagree with the idea and then BANG! it was dogma. Believe or be damned.
Prepare yourself.
= = =
INDEED.
We have to remind ourselves to see Jesus in everyone. They hated Jesus too. They continue to pierce and cut his body, still Christ died for ALL of us. We have to forgive.
Matthew 7 "If the world hates you, realize that they hated me first."
Is this how it is done? Do “magisterical” people sit around for long periods of time to “grind” out what will be the next new doctrines of the Catholic Church, and which ones will be ground into oblivion?
This must “grind” on the Holy Ghost of God, eh? I tirade very often against our own armchair theologians who spend most of their time also pontificating instead of PERSONALLY EVANGELIZING the unconverted.
It is possible for us even to sit around on these kinds of sites for too long when we ought to be out giving the Gospel to the unsaved, inviting them to Christ from the highways and byways and the hedges. Nevertheless, there are some folks who are reading these posts (some who never post replies) who are being urged to make a decision about Christ. Is He and His Cross-work sufficient to take them to save them and put them in right standing with a Holy God, or will their understanding be blinded by vain religion and all of its trappings. (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4).
Keep up the good posting, Quix.
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