Could be one of these:
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Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Dang! Some protties are so great at mind-reading! Amazing!
Why do you imagine she "had to pretend" so?
Could be one of these:
Let’s not forget you insisted on a Vatican source for the “Co-Redemptrix” thing. An article from a Catholic Apologist site is worthless in this environment.
I don’t see nor feel a microgram of hate in those words.
Discomfort with a perspective, statement, words does not automatically equal hate.
I don’t discern any hate in John at all toward anyone except maybe the devil.
Catholics need not apply, in THIS environment.
Good night, everyone.
Keep us safe, Lord, while we are awake, and guard us as we sleep, so that we can keep watch with Christ and rest in peace.
Now, Master, you let your servant go in peace.
You have fulfilled your promise.
My own eyes have seen your salvation,
which you have prepared in the sight of all peoples.
A light to bring the Gentiles from darkness;
the glory of your people Israel.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
Keep us safe, Lord, while we are awake, and guard us as we sleep, so that we can keep watch with Christ and rest in peace.
And actually the Church doesn’t teach co-redeemer anyway so it’s a moot point.
= = =
Not a moot point.
It seems that all the available evidence strongly indicates that it’s just a matter of time until the new dogma gains that status—given the sympathies from the Pope down.
Pinging a bunch of you to Old Reggie's excellent post #2,907. One would hope this would quell the Catholic nay-sayers, but nothing has yet.
I used to know an RC once . . . who threw out
“bearing false witness”
at tons of uncomfortable things Prottys were given to post.
Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us. And after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us oh holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen.
What’s an RC?
Does the Vatican lie about earthquakes??? Does the Vatican deny that earthquakes exist, even as they report on them?
Good grief. When RCs are shown clear evidence the Vatican encourages this "co-redeemer" blasphemy, still it is denied. And I can only presume with a straight face.
It would be funny if it weren't so seriously corrupt.
Last week it was the Vatican astronomer saying something and a dozen Catholics jumped out to say he doesn't speak for the Vatican!
If not for the Vatican, who?!?
Next we'll be told Mickey Mouse does not speak for Disneyland and Hillary does not speak for lesbian socialists.
My Chinese gan baba (God-dad) tested me and I finally found out—I evidently have a genetic skin problem such that if I’m more than 40 min or so on a side—especially sleeping in most other surfaces, my skin starts to ache.
Tempurpedic helps minimize that . . . as did a water bed but that’s too much trouble and the electric heater may cause problems in bodies over time.
I think SAM’S has the best prices on Tempurpedic. Since I sleep in a single bed, I got a king one paycheck and doubled it over.
Prayers for his continued health, for sure.
Now Silverlings . . . we have to be charitable . . .
trying to apply linear logic to folks unused to it and more wedded to Alice-in-Wonderland-School-Of-Matrix-Theology are used to very elastic ‘logic’ that bounces all over the place and even back and forth between various centuries . . . trying, of course to miss those centuries when the LOFTY GREAT INFALLIBLE SUPREME POLITICAL POWER-MONGER was not quite up to uhhhhh Mary’s standard.
I think that’s an enormous empty straw dog.
It is obvious that given the political currents and forces in the RC edifice from the Pope down, there’s a LOT of sentiment toward establishing it as yet another Mary dogma/doctrine.
I suspect that the END TIMES will scuttle the efforts but otherwise, it would most probably evolve into just the sort of thing Prottys have been talking about and all the RC faithful would be expected to believe it.
From where Prottys sit . . . it’s only a matter of time until yet a new dogma is added to the unchanging dogma of the RC edifice that has existed the last 1600 years—except, of course, in the very flexible calendar of the RC edifice.
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