Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
That’s not personal. It’s a statement about the post, not the person.
To be honest with you, that same theory of satan’s deceit, is why some Catholics are weary of non-Catholic religions. They tend to associate them with cults, like the People’s Temple in Guyana. No Catholic will say something like that openly and it isn’t something anybody dwells on.
Of course . . .
The religious rulers 2000 years ago tried to maintain their political power-mongering RELIGIOUS monopoly, too.
All RELIGIOUS magistericals have an intense motivation to cast other OUT-GROUPS as beyond the pale, evil, cultish etc. It’s a pretty generic monopolistic ploy. Nothing particularly Scriptural about all it’s permutations but very comon.
My Bible is printed on paper.
At the end of the day, friends, those who follow those two commandments best, win. I personally think it is best if we work to improve our own shortcomings, instead of the shortcomings in other people’s (eyes). Catholics choose to love God and everything about him. Loving those who serve Him on heaven and earth, doesn’t diminish our love for Him. Love is infinite. If we are wrong, that is up to God to judge decide.
Great Biblical wisdom in your post. Thx.
I think I’m going to post some excerpts from
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE GOD KIND
by David Du Plessis on a thread . . . if I have the energy.
CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE GOD KIND
by David Du Plessis on a thread . . . if I have the energy.
A narrative of his 5 earth hours spent in Heaven.
I think the wedding pics are on FR somewhere. He might know the link.
I had a neighbor, a cradle Catholic, who didn't know the difference between Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene. That's not one of the reasons I'm not a Catholic now.
I have a neighbor, one of the finest people I have ever known. He's a devout Catholic who lives and practices his faith. Still, that will not be a reason for me to "swim back".
All I’m saying is that when someone says something like, “Feel the hate.” it’s not that the person is feeling Hated, but hate of the idea sure is.
So when a “feel the hate” statement is made, it’s not correct to say, “I am hated.” Nor “The poster is saying that the first poster hates them.” but it is evident that there is an amount of hate going on.
Not person to person but idea to idea.
In some cases, you may well be right.
In some cases, the evidence is quite otherwise and emphatically so.
I have no intention to reply substantively to every post in which you sound like a fool.
Quite a loving treatise, that.
LOL.
Lots of things fall away at the moment of death . . . including all our unfounded assumptions.
In my experience, humiliation works to my good if and when I invite God into it to instruct me what I can learn from the experience.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Your Presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
In what way is she more hidden than most every other female. What are her mysteries. What is her resurrection and assumption? How can he say that her parents didn’t really know her.
= = =
Welllllllllllllllllllllllllllll, it appears to me . . . that the magisterical started with a clean slate and began fantasizing. I don’t know if they brainstormed; used a Nominal Group Process or what . . . but they sure came up with some dooooozies. Alllll of them adding coins to the coffer; control to the power mongering and handy feel good trinkets, idols and rituals for the RELIGIOUS serfs.
Quite a gig.
I just felt the need of some “cleansing prayer” posted on this thread, this morning, after all of yesterday’s prolific protestant preachiness.
= = =
GTTM!
Okay! I LIKE this!
Here's a vision of heaven: Instead of a sword dance, a dance where crown fly through the air. God grants crowns, and we immediately throw them at His feet, around the glassy sea! That is so right!
I have found one of the loveliest little signs of the eschaton and the dance of the blessed is when you let your wife, or significant other, into the passenger side seat, and s/he reaches across and unlocks the driver's side door, so you don't have to unlock it.
There is so much more beauty in that "exchange of courtesies" than in almost anything else.
That is one of the most telling RC posts I've ever seen.
Some of us have been well aware for a long time that SOME RC's place Mary above Scripture. Oh, it's not per se in the encyclicals--at least not brazenly overtly. It's not per se in the dogma . . . It's in the nuances and most brazenly in the behaviors and in the attitudes.
CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, HAS ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE ON SCRIPTURE:
Heaven and earth shall pass away; My Words shall never pass away.
And
To satan: IT IS WRITTEN . . .
IT IS WRITTEN . . .
IT IS WRITTEN . . .
Somehow, I don't think the piercing question will be for some: "Why didn't you say a hundred more Hail Mary's . . . "
But instead . . . "Why did you diminish My Word and elevate My Mother?
I don't think humiliated stammering will avail a great deal at that point.
The thing is that humans have to take one step at a time. If we try to take more, we take none.
So the one step you proposed was an examination of "one mediator". But you didn't stay with it and raised the "summoning the dead" question. But when you try to do a little bit on each step you get nowhere on the entire argument.
IMHO the right way to proceed is to examine one issue at a time. First let's look at the one mediator issue until we have some resolution on it. THEN let's look at the "summoning the dead" issue. Your way of skipping from this issue to that guarantees no resolution of any kind, ever.
The thing is that humans have to take one step at a time. If we try to take more, we take none.
So the one step you proposed was an examination of "one mediator". But you didn't stay with it and raised the "summoning the dead" question. But when you try to do a little bit on each step you get nowhere on the entire argument.
IMHO the right way to proceed is to examine one issue at a time. First let's look at the one mediator issue until we have some resolution on it. THEN let's look at the "summoning the dead" issue. Your way of skipping from this issue to that guarantees no resolution of any kind, ever.
Understanding is a good beginning.
I see a lot of evidence that the bulk of the Prottys understand the RC obsessions with the caricature the magisterical has created of Mary.
I don’t see a lot of evidence that many RC’s understand some of our Protty emphases and perspectives.
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