Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
A copilot can command and handle the aircraft if the pilot becomes incapacitated. Thank God Christ can never become incapacitated. If He could, no one, not even Mary, could pilot our souls to Heaven.
In redemption only ONE is necessary to to fill every position in the cockpit at the same time: Christ is ALL-IN-ALL and ALL-AND-IN-ALL. He is the Pilot without need of a copilot. He is the Navigator, without need of an assistant, and He doesn't even need radar. He is the Communications Officer, and he needs no help, not even a radio. He is the Steward who can fill our every need during flight; He fills the cup to blessed overflowing at the seat of every passenger on board, because they are also in the cockpit, seated IN Christ in the Heavenly places.
The day Mary's name appears in Scriptures like Colossians 2:9-11, then we'll be concerned about what Mary thinks. Until then, we'll count her as having been blessed, . . . we'll call her blessed when we tell of the birth of Jesus Christ, then we'll rejoice that she is one of millions who are awaiting the remainder of us in the Glory. That is where her authority and right stops.
I am still unconvinced that “co-” in the Vatican’s view is limited to the something like an airline copilot in relation to the pilot.
Note some corrections in the Hebrew pointed out by another poster.
The Heb. pronoun doesn't have a neuter, but since 'seed' is a neuter word in the English, the translators put 'it' for 'seed'.
shuwph is the word for bruise, not heel (I was typing too fast and should have been more careful where I put the word)
But what is important is that the translation in Lk.1:35, 'holy thing' is referring back to the seed in Gen.3:15
Ok.
I believe most Roman Catholics are simply deceived as well (he uses the word brain washed).
It is the system we hate, not the people who are being deceived.
Amen.
A King James Onlyism!
LOL!
Correct.
Christ was dealing with a question by the Sadducee's' who asked if woman had 7 husbands, whose wife would she be in heaven in the Resurrection.
Note that they used 7 and not just two as if adding more numbers would add to the problem!
Christ rebuked them for not knowing scripture nor the power of God.
Christ said in the Resurrection (not now) they will be as the Angels in heaven, who do not marry.
So much for the Mormon doctrine of marriage in heaven! (Matt.22:23-33)
Amen.
I believe any Catholic who gets saved does so because he rejects what the RCC teaches and receives the true Gospel of salvation by faith in Christ's saving work on the Cross and His Resurrection without adding anything to that faith.
Might there be Roman Catholics who are saved (Christians) but still consider themselves Roman Catholics?
That is possible, but when I speak of salvation, I am speaking of what the Roman Catholic Church teaches,(faith/works salvation), not those who might have been saved by ignoring those teachings.
I hope that is clear enough.
No, the Bible did and so did the Council of Trent when it rejected what the Bible taught regarding salvation by faith alone.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now, are you going to continue to post me just to have me post to you back?
Trent or the Bible, it is that simple.
The seed that crushes the head of the serpent is Christ (Gal.3:16, Lk.1:35)
God put enmity between the seeds of each, but it is Satan being referred to as having His head crushed (Rev.12:9) by the Lord.
When we are born, we are all children of Satan (Eph.2:3) and must be born again to become children of God (Rom.5)
Isn't that the truth. I spent years thinking I was a believer and I was great. The great deciever had me way too distracted. That is exactly why prayer, and a loving heart are so important. To be honest with you, that same theory of satan's deceit, is why some Catholics are weary of non-Catholic religions. They tend to associate them with cults, like the People's Temple in Guyana. No Catholic will say something like that openly and it isn't something anybody dwells on.
Is it just me, or does anybody else see something wrong with that?
When we are born, we are all children of Satan (Eph.2:3) and must be born again to become children of God (Rom.5).
How do you go from Eph.2.3 to Rom.5, in the same sentence? Is that the verse that says Catholics aren't Christians? I don't even want to know who Trent is.
One of the scribes came to Jesus and asked him, “Which is the first of all the commandments?” Jesus replied, “The first is this: Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
At the end of the day, friends, those who follow those two commandments best, win. I personally think it is best if we work to improve our own shortcomings, instead of the shortcomings in other people's (eyes). Catholics choose to love God and everything about him. Loving those who serve Him on heaven and earth, doesn't diminish our love for Him. Love is infinite. If we are wrong, that is up to God to judge decide.
>>Bring your notes and prepare to explain yourself. <<
I’m not sure I’ll have fingers at that point but I’ll try to remember your advice!
>>But then I think Petronski is, too.<<
I love him more than words can say. I’ve very sad that I missed the chance to meet him and his lovely other half earlier this year.
How sad....
We complain about the hate, because the hate is here.
>>It is the system we hate, not the people who are being deceived.
2,423 posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:41:39 AM by fortheDeclaration (”Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”.-John Adams) <<
All I’m saying is that when someone says something like, “Feel the hate.” it’s not that the person is feeling Hated, but hate of the idea sure is.
So when a “feel the hate” statement is made, it’s not correct to say, “I am hated.” Nor “The poster is saying that the first poster hates them.” but it is evident that there is an amount of hate going on.
Not person to person but idea to idea.
Netmilsmom: Well I’ll sort that out with the “Big Guy” when I get up there.
Dr. E: Bring your notes and prepare to explain yourself.
People who are dying bring nothing to God, just their naked agony, their acceptance that the body cannot carry on, and their faith that God waits for them in Love and Glory. It was my joy, my honor, and my cross to be present at the deaths of my mother, my father, and my husband. My stepmother, who was with me when my father died, expressed a wish that I be with her when her time comes, if I am able.
The prottie fantasy that God listens to their petty arguments and disagreements, that tearing down Catholicism will be “stars in their crown” — the supposition that God will look favorably on their “defense of sola scriptura” — their protests that they never worshipped an idol and “lovingly corrected” those who did — will all be wiped away (I predict) in the moment they come face to Face with Christ in Glory.
At the approach of death all their silly ridiculous protests will be meaningless. Eternity awaits, and the baggage of cant will be seen for what it truly is: a way to make themselves feel good at the expense of the Catholic Church, nothing more, and nothing less. Dying is something each does for him/herself, alone, unless, there is a consolation, and a thin-skinned poster on the RF forum of FR will be less than nothing....
“Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.” Her great heart of Mercy always stands ready to console, and welcome, each one who calls on Her.
correction: “...and the humiliation of a thin-skinned poster on the RF forum of FR will be less than nothing...”
This is the day the Lord has made! Let us rejoice and be glad in it!
Praise the Lord, the Mighty God, the Great King over all the gods. He holds in His Hands the depths of the earth, and the highest mountains as well. He made the seas, they belong to Him, and the dry lands too, for they were formed by His Hands.
Come, then, let us bow down and worship, bending the knee before the Lord our Savior, for He is our God, and we are His people, the flock He shepherds.
St. Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be thou our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world, seeking the ruin of souls.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Your Presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
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