Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
AS I’ve said repeatedly . . .
I INVITE EARNEST CHRISTIANS
who feel genuinely led to do so—to post every bit as forcefully as I do—using satire, mocking—whatever could be remotely construed as redemptive—toward helping me see through my blind spots.
Many folks in my past have done so to redemptive effect, for me.
What do you think it CLEARLY SAYS?
Not what inferences do you draw from it.
Not what extrapolations do you draw from it.
Not what fantasies does it trigger.
What do you honestly think it CLEARLY SAYS?
And I respect that. I’m going to try it with the extra helping of jelly for a while and see how it goes.
With all Our Lord’s blessings, I’ll see some good things come from it.
I may not change a million hearts but maybe I can find a ground that we can all stand on.
Night all!
I think that’s a very admirable supposition.
Bzzzzt
= =
I gather that was the accurate original Scripture being zotted by the magisterical?
1. There’s no evidence that he had a significant indwelling presence of Holy Spirit or an ear trained to hear Holy Spirit.
2. God is sovereign. He chose to do it the way He did. No biggy. Just God being God.
3. Perhaps in order to give Scriptural evidence of folks traveling IN THE SPIRIT a la Philip.
“we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.”
= = = =
Perhaps you’d be willing to list the things the RC edifice loads in on top of that verse’s meaning(s)??
“That is true, and to the point that those who win reward by their works will inevitably throw their crowns at Jesus’ feet. None deserve any glory but Christ.”
O.k.: it’s very clear that we have very different understandings about the nature of the Body—either we become one Body or we don’t.
I Cor 12:22-26
“Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.”
that their point is not to have a clash of ideas but to irritate, to drive people nuts. And, yes, if someone sets out to irritate me or a group I’m in, I take that personally, as it was meant.
= =
I still don’t fit the tidy little box some seem determined to shove me into.
None of the variations of
co-
work for me. The English meanings are all an affront, a blasphemy to Christ and His utterly unique role, imho.
The meanings are clear in English . . .
Regardless of the English meaning chosen, Mary still ends up inordinately ranking very high on a two person team that God designed as a one person slot—essentially—for Himself.
Perceptively put about the salt deficiency.
Though that’s a hazard for all Christians.
There is no context in which a ‘co’ of any kind will be sufficient. I will not suffer that credit being taken from Christ by even the least increment, subordinate or otherwise.
That Jesus died for me at Calvary shows His deep and abiding love for me personally. What need have I for any other? My Lord need not be wheedled nor convinced with regard to His concern for me and mine. We stand boldly before the Holy of Holies and simply ask. No “goddess of heaven”, no angel, no saint, no “priest” gets credit for that. There is only one Redeemer. There is only one Mediator (Priest). One Savior is all I need.
==
INDEED!
The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit lead men to the full understanding of Jesus Christ and the victory He alone won for His sheep on the cross.
“How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. “ — Psalm 119:103-105
= =
INDEED.
Amen! Just tonight I posted to the dreaded “hate” assault.
They need a new drug.
They need a new MANTRA.
I am still unconvinced that “co-” in the Vatican’s view is limited to the something like an airline copilot in relation to the pilot.
= = =
imho, even that quasi ‘limited’ elevation is blasphemy.
Christ gave every indication, even in Scripture, that as far as He was concerned—Mary and his wet half-brothers rode coach like the rest of the believers. And that all who did the will of the Father were EQUAL TO MARY.
I don’t see RC’s admitting the plain meaning of that Scripture at all.
Shoot. I’m pretty generous.
I don’t even hate 100% of the system! LOL.
LOL.
I was reared on KJV and that’s how I’ve memorized so much of it.
However, I’m NOT a KJV only person by a long shot.
Yeah, well . . .
RC’s aren’t the only group with rubber Bibles.
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