Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
If marry were “perfect” then there would have been no need for Christ to come, hence another way for redemption to happen and God sent his son to die in vain.
no marry is equal to every other saint living or dead!
Marry was Gods chosen vessel to deliver the savior to a fallen world, nothing more.
THUD
There has been article after article, excerpt after excerpt posted from Catholic sources that make the claim that Mary as a co-redeemer is taught by your church...Did you get baptized in De Nile???
It is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. No pope has made it such and it is not in the Catechism.
You have any scriptural cross-references that a woman with a crown and twelve stars upon it are Mary the mother of Jesus??? C'mon show your brethern...
How about a reference where Mary travailed in pain during child birth...Surely you have something...Show your fellow Catholics how the REAL private interpreter handles the verses...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Here's a good one for you...How long is a 'time' and a 'half a time'??? Was the woman given two wings of an Angel??? NO??? An eagle...Give us a cross reference where this is clearly Mary...Can't find one??? Well, make something up then...
It IS a teaching of the Catholic church...You've read it here on FR countless times...Your last pope called Mary the Co-Redemptrix numerous times...Makes no difference whether it's in your catechism...Your church teaches it as truth...
Why would I engage in an argument with you when you have publically--proudly?--rejected logic and common sense? Reasoning with you in light of this would plainly be futile.
Absolutely false.
Makes no difference whether it's in your catechism...
Doubly false.
I can take your word for what the Catholic Church teaches OR I can take the word of the Catholic Church for what the Catholic Church teaches. You do see where is this going, don't you?
Are you, presumptively saved, capable of and culpable for sin?
Or are your sins only the consequence of God letting you sin?
If the former, then why bridle at the notion of co-operation?
You can believe what you want to believe, but that is not Catholic Dogma. Refer to: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
Your assertion “If marry(sic) were “perfect” then there would have been no need for Christ to come.” Is just backwards. Her perfection is a necessary pre-condition to the incarnation of Jesus.
You interpret Rev. differently. That's fine. I wouldn't call you ignorant because that is not pleasing to the God I know, who dislikes the pharisees, and asks us to Love him and others.
It's not that I don't respect and honor Mary as the Mother of God, it's simply that the church has built up an entire, massive doctrine around her that can be clearly seen to have arisen from an early pagan influence, and that is unnecessary and a distraction. I don't need an "intercessor", nor does anyone else - we have an intercessor - the "man Christ Jesus". He is the one and only mediator between man and God, and the only one necessary and the only one we should be directing our prayers to, outside the Father and Holy Spirit.
Catholics use a disingenuous argument when they claim that we can ask saints and Mary to pray for us just like we ask our friends to pray for us. Our friends are clearly living, and can clearly hear our request. There is no evidence that those who have died and gone to be in the presence of the Lord can at all hear anyone on earth.
Even if they could, how could they conceivably handle billions of "intercession" requests since they do not possess the attribute of omnipresence. This "omnipresence" aspect of the dilemma is one in which I have heard Catholics give simply tortured answers to, in attempts to skirt or divert the logic of the situation. And I do mean tortured logic.
There is no argument possible for the "intercession" of Mary and saints, hearing the prayers of billions of believers, that can in any way dodge the issue of "omnipresence". None. And once you pin it to this issue, it all goes up in smoke. But like I said, I have heard some tortured and circular logic to try to get around it. It doesn't wash.
LOL
Yeah, it definitely is LOL. So let’s hear it, let’s hear your explanation of how Mary or saints could possibly deal with billions of requests from believers without possessing the attribute of omniscience. I’m waiting, I’m sure it will be as entertaining as the various other answers I’ve heard on the subject...
The saints are able know the prayers and intercede with as many of them as God provides. Presuming that those alive in Christ are bound by earthly time or mortal limitations is silly and narrow-minded.
So they don't have multitasking-intercessor capabilities they do it in a round robin fashion in which our present perception of the passage of time is suspended as they deal with requests one off?
Seriously, in what way is what you're trying to describe at all different from the attributes of omnipresence as possessed by God?
Thank you for sharing your mockery and hostility. I have no desire to try to convince you, I frankly don’t care what you believe.
What church did you go to that taught "Sola Scriptura"?
One of the things that has kept me from crossing over to the Catholic Church is the Marian doctrines, in particular the belief in "intercession" of Mary and saints - for the exact reasons I have just put forward. Any attempt to attribute to Mary and saints the ability to intercede for billions of potential requests from the nearly billion members of the Church who believe such things, cannot be done so without also attributing to them the power of omnipresence which is possessed by God alone. There is no rational or logical way around the argument. Trust me, having considered joining the Church from a Lutheran background, I've thought it through. And no Catholic has yet been able to present a reasoned or rational argument to counter it.
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