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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you, RM.


2,821 posted on 06/05/2008 4:03:23 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg
Do you actually know what the definition of "vicar" is?

Uh, maybe the guy who takes the place of God on earth?

"But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."

THE REUNION OF CHRISTENDOM

Encyclical Letter of Pope Leo XIII June 20, 1894

2,822 posted on 06/05/2008 4:04:24 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Mad Dawg
I'm stuned. this is Hugh and series.

*******************

Ah, the classics! Tradition. Ain't it grand?

2,823 posted on 06/05/2008 4:05:56 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: netmilsmom
made in the shade

That's an expression I haven't heard in a while; that's like the bee's knees. ;^)

2,824 posted on 06/05/2008 4:11:23 PM PDT by windsorknot
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To: OLD REGGIE

This the second time tonight I have plugged your quotes into google and been provided with a list of viciously anti-Catholic—and frankly darkly evil—websites.


2,825 posted on 06/05/2008 4:14:43 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: OLD REGGIE
vicar
2,826 posted on 06/05/2008 4:16:07 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: John Leland 1789; Mad Dawg
Sorry for the delay. I got my magnifying glass out and went all the way through the definitions and usages of “co-” in The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford University Press, 1993, pp. 425, 426. The sense that it “can denote inferiority” is absent from the definitions. The synonym most used in the definitions, probably 30 to 50 times, is “joint.”

Gosh, I tried the Catholic Dictionary. No luck either. I imagine your only recourse is to the Catholic "experts" on this thread.
2,827 posted on 06/05/2008 4:17:24 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Ignore the links or acknowledge them. The rest of us will learn much about your purpose here.


2,828 posted on 06/05/2008 4:19:03 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: OLD REGGIE; mgist

From the article, “ I had to admit to God and to myself that I was in love with Yvonne!”

Pretty much says it all, he messed up and so he wants to blame it all on the Catholic Church. We actually had an ex-priest and ex-nun who were married in the neighboring parish, they were mature enough to understand that it wasn’t the Church it was themselves. How they reconciled it with God, I don’t know, but the were both great teachers and worked in lay positions.

It is often the case that those who don’t or won’t hold to the teachings of the Church leave and blame the Church for their own faults without truly admitting any wrong in themselves. You know, it is how a lot of people behave when caught in a lie. They make excuses and blame it on someone or something else when it was all their own fault.


2,829 posted on 06/05/2008 4:25:29 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: Mad Dawg
Fist you hit us with the "one mediator" text. The INSTANT I suggest that there may be more to that...

Sorry, you're the one who sees no difference with asking someone physically sitting next to you for something and asking someone who has been dead for 2,000 years for something. I'm starting to understand the Catholic definition-weaseling that goes on. "Worship" doesn't include, revere, prostrate to, sing about, or pray to. "Mediator" has been expanded to include anyone that will intercede. Even "dead" has been expanded to becoming little angels who minister to the living. For what purpose? To protect the image of a church that wishes to dole out forgiveness of a small set of sins while making up new ones?

2,830 posted on 06/05/2008 4:25:34 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: trisham; mgist

And besides, mgist was just attacking the words of non-Catholics.


2,831 posted on 06/05/2008 4:27:26 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: tiki; mgist
Yes. There's that.

Can one be more in tune with the rules? :)

2,832 posted on 06/05/2008 4:29:41 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: netmilsmom
Well since I’m not “consulting” the dead but rather asking them to pray for me, I’m made in the shade!

So the Catholic definition of "consulting" doesn't include "praying to" now? Or maybe the Catholic definition of "dead" doesn't include Christians?

2,833 posted on 06/05/2008 4:36:11 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg
Well, Luther clearly calls the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of God and throughout the document he acknowledges that Peter was the first pope.

I have read the 95 Theses and can't remember them this way.

His one mention of the Mother of God follows:
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.

Though he mentions Peter it is to complain aganist the blasphemy of him.

77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.

Do you have a "special" version of the 95 Theses?

2,834 posted on 06/05/2008 4:38:00 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Hmm, verrryyyy interestink. With emphasis on the stink.


2,835 posted on 06/05/2008 4:55:02 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: tiki; wagglebee
I’m waiting too but still reading.

I've been waiting for days on this thread, considerably longer than you've been waiting, for an OFFICIAL definition of "Authentic Magisterium". I'm still waiting. I did get one referral to Wikipedia but I doubt that is an Official Catholic Source.

I guess the word Magisterium has little meaning to you.

2,836 posted on 06/05/2008 4:55:47 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Mad Dawg

We already have one in heaven. His name is Jesus.


2,837 posted on 06/05/2008 4:56:31 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

Just a joke, right?

Haha ha ha ha ha . . . er . . . yeah, right.


2,838 posted on 06/05/2008 4:57:22 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: OLD REGGIE

“Mother of God”

You have no problem with that term?

Tell us all why you think someone might reply to questions about the 95 theses wit the curt response “I am not a Lutheran.”


2,839 posted on 06/05/2008 4:59:39 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: mgist
"You know how Luther really had two slogans, not just sola fide, but the second slogan he used to revolt against Rome was sola Scriptura, the Bible alone. My question is, 'Where does the Bible teach that?'"

The verse just prior to where you find the Bodily Assumption of Mary.
2,840 posted on 06/05/2008 5:00:32 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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