Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
“And then explain to me the use of “need” in our other post.”
***************************
Need. “A particular point or respect in which some necessity or want is present or is felt; a thing wanted; a requirement.” The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford University Press, 1993, p. 1897.
God willing, one day the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand the truth.
Thanks for the clarification, because I had no idea where the italicized portion came from or what it meant.
Sorry to disappoint you.
So is Mary a joint-saviour or joint-redeemer with Jesus Christ?
Well the first dictionary that I got was Answers.com
http://www.answers.com/topic/co-prefix?cat=health
Dictionary: co–
pref.
1. Together; joint; jointly; mutually: coeducation.
2. Partner or associate in an activity: coauthor; cofounder.
3. Subordinate or assistant: copilot.
4. To the same extent or degree: coextensive.
Complement of an angle: cotangent.
[Middle English, from Latin, variant of com-, com-.]
So now if co- can be Number three, how do we know what the meaning is in a particular word. Go to the source.
The Catholic Church said co- when it comes to Mary means Subordiate.
How does The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary explain the words “co-pilot” who is subordiante to a pilot or “co-star” in movies, tv or plays has the smaller insignificant part?
Random House 2nd Ed "auxiliary, subsidiary".
My Shorter OED is as you say but I note it doesn't even have "co-pilot".
SO instead of dealing with YOUR contention about "co-" you just seized on the meaning of co-pilot and went on with your other argument ... so you changed the subject before that last one was settled?
Amazing! No wonder we don't get anywhere! You guys view arguments like weapons or calibers or something. "Well that one didn't shut 'em up, let's try this one."
You did not post it.
God willing, one day the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand the truth.
Every day He leads me there, through the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church, founded by Christ and with Peter as its Pope.
Well .... my joints ARE beginning to give me trouble ....
You mean in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church?
She is not "joint-saviour or joint-redeemer" in the Catholic Church. Is she in yours?
What a foul and disingenuous statement. I doubt there is anyone on this forum who "desires and intends ill" for any Catholic anywhere. What a preposterous and creepy thought.
You do know the story about the two-timing Frenchmen who looked under his bed for any evidence of his wife's adultery, don't you? He found none but his own.
I’m waiting too but still reading.
"You know how Luther really had two slogans, not just sola fide, but the second slogan he used to revolt against Rome was sola Scriptura, the Bible alone. My question is, 'Where does the Bible teach that?'"
Both, according to the RCC.
(((shudder)))
I am regularly thankful that I am separated by geography and anonymity from some of the people here.
Trust me: you NEVER disappoint ;o)
My answer: It does not.
Let’s let everyone decide if any of these sound alright:
“Mary, our subordinate Redemptrix.”
“Mary, our subsidiary Redemptrix.”
“Mary, our assistant Redemptrix.”
“Mary, our joint-Redemptrix.”
Absolutely false.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.