Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Jesus did this because the Pharisees knew their Scripture, backwards and forward, but they had turned that Scripture into a bludgeon and a power play. They made impossible rules and then only considered themselves holy.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your post
Thank you for sharing your own personal interpretation of Scripture.
Oh wait. "Drive them nuts". I keep forgetting not to take the arguments of the opposition seriously.
I can list half a dozen Freepers who do exactly the same thing here.
“Do me the kindness of paying attention: I adduced “Co-pilot” for a very limited purpose. “
******************************************
I did this in three recent posts. Others reading this can see that I have reasonable addressed this.
And that particular position is blasphemy.
Rome spends so much time back-tracking, struggling to explain the foolishness of what it clearly teaches that it's no wonder Catholics try to diminish God's word. The truth is there in black and white, and yet they still want to quibble over what the definition of "is" is.
Mary is not a "co-redeemer" in any sense of the word in any language or era or continent.
Christ alone redeems His flock, and that includes the redemption of Mary who was a fallen sinner like the rest of us and who was saved by grace alone through Christ alone.
I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but the shuck and jive continues.
Explain "need" please.
And as you do, please note the implicit "When did you stop beating your wife?" aspect of your question.
I think you misread what I wrote. It was intended as a semi-sarcastic expose of what Protestants actually mean.
I am a lifelong Catholic.
I cried again when I wrote it.
That is the meaning YOU impose on it. The Catholic Church does not impose that meaning, it has no teaching on any "co-redeemer" status of Mary. The proponents of the title specifically state that it is meant in the sense of the Latin word cum, meaning with.
You've poisoned your own well. Here's how:
First you seemed to say that we think Mary pre-existed Creation. I asked you if you were serious. Did you reply?
Then you wrote that you are prepared to summarize what you have not read.
And while I don't know if you were involved we now have the disclosure of the "Drive them nuts" strategy.
Couple this with the standard put out by Protestants on US7's earlier thread, and we have reasonable doubts of innocence.
So I cannot be certain that your statement is sincere or just meant to eat up the time and energy of papertyger.
What??? The Holy Spirit is a part of all of our prayers. The Holy Spirit is the center of everything, you know The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. You really have no idea. Please take time to know us. I beg you. The way you practice your faith is between you and God. Educating yourself about that of which isn't too much to ask. Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Please!
A Protestant gives testimony about Catholism /
I think you know that, but I wanted to make it clear.
I’m sorry: Could you direct me to the part where you said, “I see that I was mistaken and that ‘Co-’ can indeed be used to denote inferiority.” And then explain to me the use of “need” in our other post.
I never thought you did, though I do find it peculiar that someone who subscribes to the false doctrine of "sola scriptura" is invariably referencing other books.
There are many Antichrists.
More YOPIOS.
Any man who presumes to tell other men that he is infallible in anything, let alone something so important as our Christian faith, is not speaking the truth. Instead that person is glorifying himself at the expense of the only teacher we have on earth -- the Holy Spirit who works according to God's will by giving us a correct understanding of the Scriptures.
Does the Holy Spirit have the ability to show ANY person how to correctly interpret Scripture? YES or NO.
I am not afraid to declare the pope an imposter.
Again, I never thought you did.
No pope is the "vicar of Christ."
Do you actually know what the definition of "vicar" is?
Now, lemme get this straight: Protestants object to the claim that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and so preserved from error. But lots of Protestants on FR claim direct inspiration by the Holy Spirit -- in spite of the fact that they disagree with one another (except of course on Catholic matters). I don't recall which Protestant poster mentioned he finally found a church reasonably consonant with his own beliefs after rejecting several Protestant churches.
It strikes me as truly blasphemous to believe that the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself depending on who He's talking to. Or do Protestants believe that He is deliberately sowing dissension, even among "saved" Protestants?
Uh, Petronski is ALSO Catholic.
Yesterday, even tho I tried to answer biblical questions on this thread,and using scripture to validate the arguments, I was subjected to ridicule and constantly criticized, so why continue to incite such a response. Unlike others here though, I don't care about the caustic comments really, these are the open threads and I am glad we have them.
Mary has indeed been called the "firstborn of every creature" by one of the popes, and the reference has been posted too many times to claim we make it up.
Really really nice. I am impressed.
Let’s read it again....
Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
So who else is “that AntiChrist”?
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