Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
By what authority or on what basis do you say this?
RC's often say that DeMontfort goes too far and was in a state of extacy, or something like that. But then those RCs say that DeMontfort's opinions are not official RC doctrine.
BUT you also have popes that honor and even make pilgramages to DeMontfort's grave. So we have this whole grey area of Marianism, we have John Paul "the most Marian pope of all" and then we have De Montfort. It's a slippery slope with no reason not to go all the way down to De Montfort level.
So then we get:
5. Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility. He called her "Woman" as if she were a stranger, although in his heart he esteemed and loved her above all men and angels. Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter. She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe, not excluding his dwelling above the cherubim and seraphim. No creature, however pure, may enter there without being specially privileged.
>>Some Protestants Catholics here desire and intend ill for some Catholics Prottestants here.<<
Honestly my FRiend, I think you’re gonna find some in every group.
That doesn’t mean any of us need to play into it. Someone doing something wrong, does not give a pass to do wrong one’s self.
That’s what we need to remember!
By what authority or on what basis do you say this?
RC's often say that DeMontfort goes too far and was in a state of extacy, or something like that. But then those RCs say that DeMontfort's opinions are not official RC doctrine.
BUT you also have popes that honor and even make pilgramages to DeMontfort's grave. So we have this whole grey area of Marianism, we have John Paul "the most Marian pope of all" and then we have De Montfort. It's a slippery slope with no reason not to go all the way down to De Montfort level.
So then we get:
5. Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility. He called her "Woman" as if she were a stranger, although in his heart he esteemed and loved her above all men and angels. Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter. She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe, not excluding his dwelling above the cherubim and seraphim. No creature, however pure, may enter there without being specially privileged.
OOPS.
I have considered the Catholic church and over and over it is shown to be leading men away from Christ and towards idolatry, which, if you read the Bible, is probably the greatest sin next to denying the Holy Spirit (which, as has been shown on these threads, is very nearly what Rome does by substituting the office and work of the Holy Spirit for the actions of the RCC.)
I didn't write the words, "another Christ." Those who speak for the RCC wrote them, in stark contradiction to God's word...
"Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with —- both in his official ministry and in his personal life..."
Astounding how any Christian can read those words and not be repelled.
"Another Christ...both in his official ministry AND in his personal life."
No wonder young children are so abused at the hands of one who presumes himself to be "another Christ" even in his "personal life."
“Not only does the Catholic Church use this co-pilot metaphor, it does not teach “co-redemptrix” at all.”
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Then let us all very clearly establish here that Mary has no part in the salvation of sinners.
lol, could you give us some specific posts examples so we can avoid it in the future? Also people who feel "abused" at hearing the Word preached on an open thread in the religion forum, might want to try another cozier, safer corner.
The problem is that you either have no idea what we believe, or you completely misunderstand. Who taught you what we believe? Your posts of our supposed beliefs, boggle the mind, to say the least. There are plenty of Protestant converts in our church, and they are some of the best Catholics. They always say how misguided they were. Dr. Scott Hahn set out to disprove our religion, he wrote a book about it. He was a Protestant Minister for 10 years, before he found a new home. If you feel so strongly about your faith, perhaps you should attempt to have some knowledge about those beliefs you hate. Maybe a former Protestant Minister can better give you our perspective.
Another absurd distortion.
Not at all. When you've labored under the false interpretation of the Protestants for as long as I have, and finally learn what "overcoming" really means (instead of claiming forgiveness time after time), it's easy to figure out how much Protestant thinking is specifically designed to do the devil's work of accusing the brethren.
It may be the point of SOME argument, though it's hard to know how any "argument" can be had if the topic is going to be changed without announcement, much less mutual agreement.
But it is not the point of the argument you made and which we addressed, to wit, "co" denotes "equal".
Do me the kindness of paying attention: I adduced "Co-pilot" for a very limited purpose. It was NOT to discuss how Mary fit into the economy of salvation, and certainly not to say that she fit into it as a co-pilot fits into the economy of flaying a plane. I adduced it because I took your contention seriously enough to listen to it and to respond to it. And your contention was as I have said. So one example to the contrary sufficed to show that the contention was incorrect. And we offered more than one example.
No more rope-a-dope. YOU made the contention about what "co-" denotes. WE heard you and responded. Now the point you raised seems to be being swept down the memory hole, and our answer is being wrenched out of its context, YOUR context, and being woven into an attempt to argue against us by the frank and open misinterpretation of what we said by applying the matter of one argument to quite another argument.
The "drive them nuts" agenda rears its ugly head. But I'm not playing.
Job 1:6-7 -
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Mark 4:15 -
Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Ephesians 6:12 -
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
2 Corinthians 4:4 -
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Peter 5:8 -
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Is that enough?
I do not find anything untoward in the 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith.
There are many Antichrists. Any man who presumes to tell other men that he is infallible in anything, let alone something so important as our Christian faith, is not speaking the truth. Instead that person is glorifying himself at the expense of the only teacher we have on earth -- the Holy Spirit who works according to God's will by giving us a correct understanding of the Scriptures.
I am not afraid to declare the pope an imposter. He is not the head of Christ's church on earth. Christ alone holds that rank. Christ, as the head of the body, rules the universal church.
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -- Colossians 1:18
As anyone who can read can see and understand, Rome denies this fact by declaring that the bishops, with the pope as their head, rule the universal church...
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
No pope is the "vicar of Christ."
No king but Christ.
She consented to bring our Savior into the world. She intercedes on our behalf with her Son our Lord. She draws us to Christ and leads us along His path (Joh 2:5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.).
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Intercession on behalf of others with the Son of God is something EVERY child of God is supposed to practice daily. We have as much Throne access as Mary.
Every one of God’s children is supposed to draw men to Christ.
We have the Holy Spirit to lead us along Christ’s path. Why do we need Mary to do this?
What OOPS, outside of my world famous typing? I still don’t get where the official whatchamacallit comes from?
Now why didn't Jesus thing of that during His temptations, for surely the source of such "preaching" is the same?
No King but Christ
No conflict with Catholicism.
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