Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Ahhhhhh but the facts are otherwise . . .
The RC perspective reads all kinds of stuff INTO those verses.
The RC perspective construes it to mean that graduated believers are like angels in all or virtually all respects . . . INCLUDING ministering to believers still in this sphere
WHEN IN FACT, THERE’S NONE OF THAT REMOTELY IN THE VERSE AT ALL.
Their own personal interpretation of Scripture.
Well, it is. Protties can be so derogatory about RC beliefs, traditions, practices, it’s tempting to reply in kind. Surely you have felt the same thing, Thou?
But, but, that’s so Catholic! It can’t actually be from the Bible.
no,moi, I live in terror of the religion mod
Be patient, they may have an answer after they Google it.
Trouble is, dear heart,
that’s wimping out, imho.
SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS WE MUST work out OUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING including listening to the still small voice of our Lord.
HE SAID HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE.
If that’s not happening, either the individual must not be His sheep or must not be listening.
Sure the still small voice of The Lord can be hard to distinguish from our own mental noise etc.
But that’s part of the training—not unlike my training as a Navy Radioman in listening to morse code. We learned the code first. Then we had to copy it amidst all manner of other noise and interference. We had to filter it out from the noise. It was still taught in 1971 because the human ear could do better at such filtering than electronics.
Sure we all make mistakes. We make mistakes in all facets of our Christian lives.
And God helps us learn and grow from them, when we are cooperative.
The goal is to train us to rule and reign with Him throughout eternity. Not to always be comfortable here.
AND, SADLY, it’s a brazen false delusion to fantasize that the magisterical has been
LESS FLAWED in their assumptions, teachings, discernments over the centuries than you have in your Christian walk.
The UNrubberized histories are emphatically clear that such is NOT the case. If anything the
“TRUTH BY POLITICAL POWER MONGERING ELITE” has done a worse job at ferreting out Biblical truth and Holy Spirit direction than you have.
imho, of course.
Well, good night all.
Good night Judith Anne
I think in the context and word choices, it does say they are not.
Arguing otherwise from silence seems to be an RC magisterical habit and a deadly flawed one, at that.
I’ve been through all that before many times hereon.
I don’t care to go there on this thread. I’m semiretired without a license.
My PhD was in clincial psych from the oldest, first professional school which had a lot of famous folks retired to San Diego that taught there in their retirement.
Beyond that . . . think whatever is tempting to think.
LOL, I think they get it from the St. Michael prayer. “Thrust into hell, Satan and all evil spirits who roam throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls.”
I think it’s certainly true that folks who expect to be offended are likely to be offended.
And some folks seem to feed off of offense as a major energizing part of their life.
No we do not, and I posted the relevant scripture
I’ve never construed myself as particularly responsible for others feelings.
I try to be responsible for my behaviors and leave others responsibility for their feelings about my behaviors.
>>Trouble is, dear heart,
that’s wimping out, imho.<<
And I respect that. I’m going to try it with the extra helping of jelly for a while and see how it goes.
With all Our Lord’s blessings, I’ll see some good things come from it.
I may not change a million hearts but maybe I can find a ground that we can all stand on.
Night all!
>>LOL, I think they get it from the St. Michael prayer. “Thrust into hell, Satan and all evil spirits who roam throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls.”<<
I love that prayer!
I Cor 13 is one of my most favorite chapters.
I earnestly endeavor to take it to heart in virtually all I do.
I’m trying to memorize it in Chinese.
The jury is still out, in my view.
Most of the benefits from that sort of communication tend to come years later.
I’m quite familiar with the word . . .
awww never mind.
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