The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[papertyger]

But does not the Vatican actually view the prefix "co-" as something much greater?

No.

The Marian dogmas are no secret, and clearly defined for those who care to know the Church's position. Equality with Christ is no part of them, and trying to find such demonstrates a morbid fascination with controversy.

St. Bonaventure is not the Catholic Church...celebrated or not.

[papertyger]

Hmmmm, mockery?

How’s that sado-evangelism working for ya?

[John Leland 1789]

I am under the assumption by reading the posts of Catholics that the saints and church “fathers” are incredibly important to the view of the Catholic Church. So I have begun to read some, as recommended to me.

If I begin to quote some of their writings, at what frequency will they be discounted, if their writings show any tendency to cause embarrassment to current teachings, or reveal any extremities that some would rather not be voiced? Just wondering.

[papertyger]

If I begin to quote some of their writings, at what frequency will they be discounted, if their writings show any tendency to cause embarrassment to current teachings, or reveal any extremities that some would rather not be voiced? Just wondering.

In direct proportion to your mishandling of said writings.

[RobbyS]

You dodged the question. You mean you never asked anyone to pray for you? I don’t hesitate to ask others to intercede for me. And I don’t hestitate to intercede for my children and friends. I’m no Moses, but I think God hears me.

[mgist]

Jesus said to his disciples: Mt 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Catholics perceive Heaven to be filled with angles and saints. We don't see God all alone like the Maytag repair man. "My house has many mansions". In any case, we ask all heavenly creatures who are with God, to pray for us and help us. We ask our living friends to pray for us too. Some Catholics practice these traditions, others don't. In my spiritual journey, the Blessed Mother, has personally helped and brought me closer to Jesus. She continues to help me understand "the will of God". Afterall, she is the perfect example of a human doing God's will. I have the deepest admiration, gratitude, and honor of her. She is the ultimate angel. I believe that because we are sinners, we can easily lose our way. The enemy clearly misguides us whenever possible. The bible shows how God's angels have served him throughout human history. Why is it different today?

I think for both Catholics and Protestants it is most important that we maintain the spirit of the law, which is love. As an adult, I choose to be Catholic, and can proudly say I have never heard a Catholic priest slander other religions or groups of people. For me that would be un-Christian.

[mgist]

Co-Redeemer does not mean equal to Christ. It is like The Wedding at Cana. Mother Mary supported Jesus, she asked Jesus to perform his first miracle, and she asked the people to obey him. Jesus is God, and Mary is a human woman without original sin. She is the New Eve. They are very different individuals, but they work together. Jesus is perfect like God and Mary is very special. Still they both serve a role in God's kingdom.

This isn't the Cathechism, but it's my best Catholic explanation of how we perceive Mary.

[John Leland 1789]

While I still cannot agree with your emphasis, I want to say that your answer was thoughtful. Thank you.

[wmfights]

If you don't know The Gospel it must have been a lukewarm church you've been in or you haven't been listening. Go to any Bible believing church and ask the Pastor. They will be able to tell you The Gospel right away.

If you don't want to do that ask yourself where your heart truly is. If you would like me to explain it to you please mail me and I will explain it.

[John Leland 1789]

The book ‘The Glories of Mary’
Bishop Alphonse de Liguori

Editor’s notice: ‘Everything that our saint has written is, as it were, a summary of Catholic tradition on the subject that it treats; it is not an individual author, it is, so to speak, the church herself that speaks to us by the voice of her prophets, her apostles, her pontiffs, her saints, her fathers, her doctors of all nations and ages. No other book appears to be more worthy of recommendation in this respect than The Glories of Mary.’ [1931 edition. Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn]

de Ligouri: ‘And is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon by … Mary alone.’ (pp 82,83). ‘Mary is our life … Mary in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life.’ (p.80) ‘He fails and is LOST who has not recourse to Mary.’ (p94).

‘The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to Mary.’ (p. 130). ‘Many things … are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from MARY and are obtained,’ for ‘She … is even Queen of Hell, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils.’ (pp. 127,141,143).

‘Mary is called … the gate of heaven because no once can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through HER’ (p. 160)

‘The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through MARY,’ and since ‘Our salvation is in the hands of Mary ... He who is protected by Mary will be saved, he who is not will be lost’ (pp 169,170)

‘All power is given to thee [Mary] in Heaven and on earth,’ so that ‘at the command of MARY all obey – even God … and thus … God has placed the whole church … under the domination of Mary’ (pp 180,181).

Mary is ‘also the advocate of the whole human race … for she can do what she wills with God.’ (p193)

‘Mary is the peacemaker between sinners and God’ (p., 197)

‘We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.’ ‘She … is our salvation, our life, our hope, our counsel, our refuge and our help’ (pp. 254, 257).

‘The whole Trinity, O Mary, gave thee a name … above every other name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.’ (p. 260)

---

The prayer book, the Raccolta

‘Hail, Queen, Mother of Mercy, our Life. Sweetness, and Hope, all Hail! To thee we cry, banished sons of Eve; to thee we sigh, groaning and weeping in this vale of tears.’

‘We fly beneath thy shelter, O holy Mother of God, despise not our petitions in our necessity and deliver us always from all perils, O glorious and blessed Virgin.’

‘Heart of Mary, Mother of God … Worthy of all the veneration of angels and men … In thee let the Holy Church find safe shelter; protect it, and be its asylum, its tower, its strength.’

‘Sweet heart of Mary be my salvation.’

‘Leave me not, My Mother, in my own hands, or I am lost; let me but cling to thee. Save me, my Hope, from hell.’

A Raccolta prayer to Joseph:

‘Benign Joseph, our guide, protect us and the Holy Church.’

‘Guardian of Virgins, and Holy Father Joseph, to whose faithful keeping Christ Jesus, innocence itself, and Mary, Virgin of virgins, were committed, I pray and beseech thee by those two dear pledges, Jesus and Mary, that being preserved from all uncleanness, I may with spotless mind, pure heart and chaste body, ever most chastely serve Jesus and Mary. Amen.’

[Running On Empty]

“As an adult, I chose to be Catholic, and can proudly say I have never heard a Catholic priest slander other religions or groups of people”.

I have had the very same experience. I could say the identical words that you have posted here.

[RobbyS]

Apart from the claims of the Redemptorists,whose language was always regarded as over the top, and went far beyond what St. Alphonsus wrote,
to understand what is said here.
when Mary is spoken of here, she is taken as the figure of the Church, as the woman in the Apocalypse. You will not be much happier though if you look at our claim that Christ can be known only through the Church. But beyond this, the Incarnate Word is known to us only because of Mary.

This is not a matter of necessity, just a matter of fact, if one takes the nativity stories, and the New Testament, seriously. As John says, the Word was made flesh, and as Paul said, he was born of a woman, and John tels us she was present at the foot of the cross. As Matthew and Luke say , the woman was a Virgin. Luke goes beyond this to tell us that Mary is a prophetess, that she was present on Pentecost. The exaltation of her name may make you uncomfortable, but if the name of Jesus is to be every other name, then the name of his mother ought to be mentioned. If Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God. Like it or not, that is how the Church councils argued, councils that claimed that this was the ancient teaching of the Church.

To exalt Jesus is to exalt Mary, but, so long as you are reading, look at the messages associated with the visions of Lourdes, LaSalette, and Fatima. Always she speaks as an angel of God. A fitting role for the queen of angels. And ominous. For as often as not she seeks to warn us as well as to comfort us. Bad things are about to happen, but do not despair.

[hosepipe]

Exactly.. the golden calf was indeed a totem.. as surely as the native Americans around me as my neighbors reference their totems.. And most of them, are some kind of christian..

I don't think they bow down to them physically but mentally some do.. For sure the stories of the various "icons" on the totem are referenced.. The stories of the wolf, whale, orca, seal, polar bear, brown bear, grizzly, sea otter, raven etc.. that are the "icons" are rich with meaning and lessons.... pretty much like a Bible.. Their culture is all wound up and depends on them(the stories and icons)..

In some or in many cases the stories get all mixed up or overridden.. You cannot serve "two masters", comes to mind.. Jesus' metaphors are one thing, and the metaphors of the icons are another.. corrupting each or BOTH.. Every culture has metaphorical icons, I believe.. Adapting them to bibical truth is chancy at best and corrupting at worse.. Jesus' metaphors have distinct and unique meanings that shouldn't be messed with, I think.. As the golden calf attests to.. There is MUCH AT STAKE.. producing extra bibical metaphors is frought with caution I suspect.. Even Jesus' metaphors should be handled gingerly... Else the message(s) can be missed harming the spiritual student..

Handling/considering/dealing with "icons" has ten foot pole marks all over them.. Many in my expierence convert/morph the icons from stories to reality on several levels.. Using the Bible itself as an icon produces the same result, probably.. The harm is not in the stories(theology) but in masking of Jesus' message(s).. Not a problem IF your God is just a mental construct anyway.. making God himself an icon.. to the icon handler..

[Wonder Warthog]

"Jesus as Man was not King. It was Jesus as God that is King (I bet I’m going to get into trouble for making that distinction, and I’m not trying to make too much emphasis on it)."

As well you should. At all times, Jesus was wholly man and wholly God. And He is King, both as man AND God. On earth, he hadn't "come into his kingdom" (think Aragorn in "Lord of the Rings")

"Jesus said “my Kingdom is not of this world”."

Correct.

"Mary was chosen by God to be the Mother of Jesus, but there is no indication she was chosen to be the Queen of anything."

She was chosen to be "mother of the King". I've given you the Biblical and historical logic behind the belief. You can certainly ignore it. Protestants believe a lot of things that have far less Biblical support and ignore things that have far more (like the "Real Presence" doctrine).

[Iscool]

You will not be much happier though if you look at our claim that Christ can be known only through the Church.

And that's fine...But that's why you are not the church Jesus founded...You can be any church you want...But you should quit connecting it with the God of Creation...

Your church did not 'found' nor will it 'found' Jesus...

The fact is; the REAL fact is that THE church can only be known through Jesus Christ...NOT your way, His way...

NO ONE has ever joined the church that Jesus founded unless that person has come to Jesus Christ first...Any other teaching is the epitome' of heresy...You have deluded yourself is you think otherwise...

[rollo tomasi]

“That's the only one that was condemned as heretical.”

The rest are considered fables or just outright Gnostic in nature.

“Sorry, I'm not following what you're saying.”

It means your “infallible” Pope in 1950 used a legend arising in the 5th century to declare anyone questioning it worthy of facing the wrath of God. The arrogance displayed by Pius XII totally contradicts Christ sacrifice and the hope one has in faith in Him to be WORTHY of Heaven. Your infallible human added, 1900 years after the fact, another criteria based on a legend. Keep in mind not on witnesses or even your early Church Fathers but again on legends not taken seriously until 500 years or so AFTER the fact.

Does the eternal soul rest on belief of the assumption or on Jesus Christ? Your infallible one says both, again 1900 years AFTER the supposed fact. Were does Jesus say your are in trouble questioning who I bring up to Heaven?

[rollo tomasi]

who I bring up to Heaven should be “who I bring up to Heaven”

[Ultra Sonic 007]

John Paul II used the term, "co-redeemer" for Mary on eight occasions during his papacy.

I did not know that.

[thefrankbaum]

John Paul II used the term, "co-redeemer" for Mary on eight occasions during his papacy.

I didn't want to get into the "co-redeemer" title issue, since it has been hashed out countless times on this forum, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea, least of all Ultra Sonic or any lurkers watching this thread. I know I got confused when I was lurking, and had to do some research to clarify things.

"Co-redeemer" is an English transliteration of the Latin "Co-Redemptrix." The Latin prefix "co" stems from "cum," meaning "with." It is really that simple - the definition is that she is "with the redeemer," not that she is equal to him in any sense. Heck, for 9 months she literally WAS "with" the redeemer. As Queen of Heaven, (Queen Mother - as discussed above, traditionally the mother of the King was Queen) she remains with her son.

When discussing terms of art in the Church, it is always much better to go back to the Latin. Dead Languages stay dead and static, which make them perfect for expounding fundimental Truth - you won't get caught with the connotations of the English words derived yet changed from the Latin.

[Iscool]

It is really that simple - the definition is that she is "with the redeemer," not that she is equal to him in any sense.

And it does not mean that she is NOT equal to or superior than Jesus...Your church refuses to define the meaning...

So when your church claims Mary dispenses ALL graces, and that Salvation comes thru Mary, it's left up to the local leaders how much emphasis they want to put on it...

Pretty slick move...Your church already has Mary as the co-advocate-mediator, even tho Jesus says that's a lie...There's ONE mediator...Not a co-mediator...

It won't be long before May is the fourth person of the Trinity, at your church...