Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You keep saying we hate each other’s ways. I don’t feel that way. I have no room for hate anymore. It consumes you. I only want Christ and His love to consume me.
HOGWASH.
I don’t detect a shred, a microgram of hate in any of those words or phrases, of Dr. E. at all. Not a bit.
What an unmitigated unwarranted, groundless slam.
To the pure all things are pure
to the otherwise, too many things are wellll . . . otherwise.
RC folks are outraged if a Protty dares to indicate any assumed worship of Mary on the part of Any of over a billion RC’s anywhere in the world. The wailing and screaming about Prottys daring to read RC’s hearts and minds and seeing worship of Mary there when the RC’s insist there isn’t.
Yet the same RC’s, typically, are quite seemingly gleeful to mind-read; heart-read into Protty’s statements all manner and depths of evil hate that the Prottys say’s not there and that other Prottys don’t see at all, either.
The Fascinating double standard strikes yet again.
I appreciate your kind words. I do love you.
Nooo, dear.
>>The Scripture does NOT say
as the ANGELS IN 100% OF ALL RESPECTS etc. etc.<<
Nor does it say that they are not, right?
>>I appreciate your kind words. I do love you.<<
Oh that is so sweet, thank you so much.
All I said about you is true. I really think that you do and it’s mutual.
Dr, E. . . . re post 2252:
Do you think that the personal attack stuff is a reflex, an automatic sort of genetic thing or is it a trained indoctrinated carefully reinforced habit . . . or is it an obsessive pre-meditated wallowing in falsehood.
Even as a psychologist, I’m not at all sure. But it is kind of interesting . . . slightly . . . here and there . . . in odd moments.
Thanks. But what actually does it have to do with that passage from Luke? After all Christ wasn’t talking about demons, there, but of the worthy “dead.”
Ah, one of your ‘pet’ phrases.
You were the one asking me questions, all I did was answer.
I am going to happily assume that each of the Non-Catholics love me and when things get nasty, from either side, it’s the passion of the moment.
= = =
Goodness! What a Christian, Mature, logical, practical and almost always, an objectively accurate stance to take.
Congrats. Not surprising coming from you.
PTL and pass the ammo.
No I didn’t. It was a response to someone else’s post. Read it thoroughly and you might just get it this time.
Actually, there is a lot love in that post.
Sorry for whatever glasses or fog in the air may be preventing clearly seeing it.
I don’t consider it a fight. I should have said, “pick my battles,” which is just a saying. Cheez.
In the context and meaning of that Scripture . . .
all those graduating from this time/space dimension are considered in that verse
“dead.”
I think Most RC’s know that.
Others strain at gnats and swallow camels.
And others shuck and jive and slip and slide and play word games.
Please let me know if a new scroll button is needed. I think they are pretty cheap.
So, what kind of credentials do you have? a PhD? a Masters in Clinical? An RN who works psych? To me, in order to say that, a person would have to be a professional. Do you have a license? I’m fascinated, because I gave up my nursing license when I retired.
I only ask because you say you are a psychologist, and I’m curious. What school? Eriksonian? Freudian? Behaviorist? I worked a few years in locked wards, got burnt out and went back to CCU, ICU, ER, and SICU.
>>You keep saying we hate each other’s ways. I don’t feel that way. I have no room for hate anymore. It consumes you. I only want Christ and His love to consume me.<<
I feel the same way. I want my words and actions to show it. Which is why I’m going to try very hard to look at the words and not the motivations and not take it personally.
We are only hurt by our own expectations. If I expect to be offended, I will be. It happened yesterday. I poster that I’ve had a run in with (not on this forum) said something funny, and I took it wrong. I was wrong, not the other poster. My bad!
Goodness . . . and here I was beginning to feel unnoticed and unappreciated by such a long string of few brazen personal assaults.
That personal assault is not very original but it does seem to be popular amongst a small clique of RC’s.
Thanks for the points.
Actually, I had radial keratotomy over 10 years ago, and I see just fine. Thanks for asking. It may feel like love to you, but not to me. Not that it bothers me, our posts only reflect on us.
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