The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Uri’el-2012]

However, in the interest of time and expediency,
do you subscribe to the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity?
A simple yes or no will suffice?

Not quite.

Elohim YHvH has communicated with us through His Word.
He has communicated to us from outside our time-space continuum.
Whether it be three and a half dimensions or eleven dimensions.

He does not communicate to us through some man-made corporation.
He said he would send another like himself ( Ru'ach HaKodesh )
to assist us in understanding His Holy Word.

If you understand the language of Elohim, it is very clear that:
"Yah has become my salvation" is the Name that most refer to as Jesus.
The name Yah'shua means "Yah has become my salvation".

See:

Exodus 15:2; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 27:1; Psalm 62:1; Psalm 62:2; Psalm 62:6;
Psalm 62:7; Psalm 118:14; Psalm 119:174; Isaiah 12:2; Isaiah 46:13;
Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 51:5; Isaiah 56:1; Isaiah 19:20; Isaiah 43:3;
Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21; Isaiah 49:26; Isaiah 60:16; Hosea 13:4

YHvH

Yod Hey (Yah) in Hebrew is the Name of Elohim.

vav represents man in Hebrew;

Vav is the number six in Hebrew.
Man was created on the sixth day.
Man works for six days
There are six millennia before the coming of the Messiah.
The beast is identified with the symbol of man "666"

Yah became man ( becoming the Pesach Lamb and shed His blood) for our salvation.

The letter "Hey" is the breath of Elohim. (Genesis 17:5)
When Elohim added a "Hey" to Abram and Sarai's names
making them known as Abraham and Sarah by breathing
the Ru'ach Elohim into them.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Marysecretary]

I’m sorry they did that. I don’t know people who personally attack Catholics like that. We try to explain differences in dogma here on FR, but I doubt if any of us go in any attack mode when we see those ‘wicked’ Catholics, LOL.

[netmilsmom]

>>You also have an opportunity to be as smarmy with her as you have been with me. Your choice.<<

Let me apologize if my comments came off as smarmy. They truly were not meant that way. I sincerly apologize for any offense I have given you. It was truly unintended.

Sorry.

[Marysecretary]

What I’m saying is that it’s hard to ‘dig’ into what the scripture is saying by just hearing it in church. Yes, I’ve been to a Catholic mass. I was also brought up Episcopalian so I’m familiar with liturgical churches. We have communion and that, too, is very meaningful to us.

[OLD REGGIE]

If ever an original argument came up against the Church, it would be nice.

How's this? "The typical Cathedral style of architecture favored by many Catholic Churches is not in keeping with the plain, white, steepled Congregational Church we are used to."

(Any number of small New England towns in the 1800's).

[netmilsmom]

I apologize if I wrote any thing offensive to you.
I’m not really sure where it is, but let me apologize.

[Marysecretary]

Nah, don’t need one.

[Marysecretary]

Peter had nothing to do with the Popery, Petronski. He was a pebble, remember? The ROCK was Jesus Christ.

[Marysecretary]

Peter had nothing to do with the Popery, Petronski. He was a pebble, remember?

[Marysecretary]

Collaboration? No, I doubt that. That’s not been my personal experience.

[Marysecretary]

Your interpreation of it, perhaps.

[Petronski]

If, and I say if, Mary had children by Joseph her children would be blood siblings of Jesus. Are you going to quibble whether they were 1/2 blood siblings?

Any "brothers" of Christ were, at best, sons of Joseph by an unnamed widow.

That is not a quibble.

[Mad Dawg]

You don't get it.

Catholics, with their sneaky use of such things as reason, present a serious danger to lurkers. Catholics are so dangerous that they cannot be engaged on the grounds of reason.

Instead there MUST be a kind of mock combat, a play, something fundamentally dishonest and unreal, in which Catholics and their arguments are not addressed but called names and mocked. If this were not done, the vicious, evil, repulsive, Catholics, with their notorious masochism and anxiety about sex might lure unsuspecting lurkers into their clutches.

Consequently, we don't even have to address the actual dogma of the Church. In general we should avoid any thoughtful engagement with them. Reason is not our strong suit after all, but we excel at abuse, mockery, and especially at the kind of endurance required to make the same baseless charges and mockeries over and over again.

But do not think for a minute that we do this with any cooperation among ourselves or with any malice in our hearts. We are only doing it for the poor lurkers, who without our constant vigilance might actually think about what the Catholics say.

Like Screwtape, we glorify noise, especially because it hinders thought. If the lurkers ever started thinking about what the Catholics say, if we ever let up in our efforts, why, well, who knows what might happen. They might get a clear view of the issues, and that could lead anywhere!

So we must keep up the mockery, the repetition, the same old charges and never give the lurkers a chance to think.

We're doing it for the children, I mean the lurkers.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Your [interpretation] of it, perhaps.

Nope. Catholics don’t need to resort to personal magiterical interpretations, we have almost 2,000 of history, Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradtion, and writings of the early fathers to verify it.

[Petronski]

Peter had nothing to do with the Popery, Petronski.

That word is offensive: popery.

Peter was the first Pope.

[Mad Dawg]

You are not the only Protestant on FR. Some of them collaborate. And by the standard set on a recent thread, it is up to them to prove their innocence.

[Petronski]

He was a pebble, remember?

I remember that anti-Catholic lie, yes.

[Mad Dawg]

HOGWASH!

(Sound familiar?)

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, if you don't care, why stick around?

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Earlier the Admin Moderator threatend a poster for a similar remark.

#1268 If you get a headache from discussing and defending what you believe, don't get on this site,

(Admin Moderator) "You have no right to lecture a poster like that. Your stay on Free Republic may be ended abruptly if you continue to post in that vein."

I understand your nasty reply was interrogatory. I guess you know how to play the "nasty" game.

[OLD REGGIE]

Hmmm....could a protestant be pinging the mob mentality, here?

Let the catholic back-slapping begin.