The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[annalex]

My list of conversion stories in on my profile page. As well as Salvation’s, it combines people well formed in their former faith as well as those without religious education. Converts with theology degree that come to mind are Beckwith, Grodi and Bales, Hahn, Fr. Peter Geldard, and several Protestant pastors of whose credentials I am not sure. Some, like the Catholic Answers crew of converts James Akin, Tim Sample and Jeff Cavins demonstrate good grasp of Protestant theology as well as Catholic theology virtually daily on Catholic radio.

I don’t normally participate in threads this long, so unless there is anything specifically addressed to me, I will not respond.

[Mad Dawg]

Careful. Somebody will call you a

as I was called for insisting that there is hatred behind some of this.

I remember thinking that Catholicism was so awful that anybody who converted had to be so crazy that only a smack in the chops would suffice to respond to the news of their conversion. I still owe someone an apology from almost 40 years ago for incredible rudeness on my part.

My godmother, an oxford grad, told me that catholics were just superstitious. Cardinal Newman? Oxford movement? There is a kind of embraced cognitive dissonance in anti-Catholicism. Jesuits are wily, so that Jesuitical means deceptively intricate in argument. But Catholics are stupid.

And as I posted earlier, it really is kind of like Bush Derangement Syndrome, remember?

If dear de Montfort, whose enthusiasm I really enjoy, goes overboard, as he often does, that's our fault, and because we exercise iron and minute control over everybody, we oblige people to disagree with de Montfort's excessive diction only in whispers and darkened rooms and behind closed doors. But if Catholics use ABC, that just shows what they've always said, that we are impotent.

It does seem to me that we need to reconsider our call to witness in our manner as much as in our words, and to bear in mind that against these enemies (not the posters but the "principalities and powers" behind some of the posts) we've got to find a truly evangelical modus operandi.

I know I will be mocked for saying this, but I think those who protest the loudest that they do not hate us, while showing the most hostility in what they say and how they say it, are completely sincere. Insight is not a friend of our enemy, and some manifestations of religiosity are especially good at making insight unattractive (and it's rarely fun anyway) and unlikely.

[netmilsmom]

It’s a group speak mentality.
There is one lady here who is wonderful. She is sweet and I really love her a lot, but when she gets in with the group, she knows no boundries.

A couple start, it is deamed acceptable by the powers that be and then they run with it. Like a mob.

It’s a pity to see Christians treat each other this way.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>Why would the "Catholic Church" have been founded by Torah-observant Jews on the YHvH commanded Feast of Shavuot where the Law being given to Moses is celebrated ?

They believed Jesus was Christ. Thus they were Christians. They founded Christ's Church according to His command and instruction.

1,480 posted on June 3, 2008 12:17:55 PM MDT by Petronski

Just because a Jew accepts Yah'shua as their Messiah
they do not become Catholics nor do they become Christians.

Job believed in his Redeemer.

Job 19:

25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.

26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!

He was not a Catholic nor was he a Christian.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[reagandemocrat]

>>>The word “pray” is still used in legal speech<<

That would mean that every plaintiff in every courtroom of every state in America is a blasphemer for filing a complaint with a “Prayer for Relief”—

Dang—gotta find a new line of work.

[Petronski]

Just because a Jew accepts Yah'shua as their Messiah they do not become Catholics nor do they become Christians.

They believed Jesus was Christ, making them Christians. Christ's Church founded circa AD 32 was the Catholic Church. The apostles were Catholic, the New Testament was written by Catholics.

Job believed in his Redeemer.

Unless you can demonstrate that Job believed that Jesus was Christ, you are not going to prove he was Christian.

[Petronski]

Not only that, but if you capitalize someone’s name, you are bowing to that man; if you capitalize something’s name, you are bowing to that thing!

[maryz]

[Mary is the mother of the human nature, not the Divine one.]
This is the Nestorian heresy.
No, the Nestorian heresy is saying that Christ was two persons.

Actually, some sources say Nestorianism claims two persons and some say two separate natures. I unfortunately don't know any Greek (yet), so I can't follow the controversy in original sources. But, using "natures," Nestorianism claimed that Mary was the mother only of the human nature and -- as a corollary -- that only the human nature suffered and died on the Cross, which leaves the theology of the Atonement rather in tatters . . .

[Petronski]

The two natures of Christ are not divisible. Dividing them is heresy.

Besides, since is His mother, He is her Son. She is mother of a Son, not a nature.

[maryz]

It’s sort of like the office refrigerator in a small office — the one who cares the most gets to clean it! So, too, the one who cares the most gets to track down sources . . . ;-)

[maryz]

Exactly!

[wagglebee]

Peter was commanded to go only to the Jew.

Ah yes, a favorite retort of anti-Catholics; however, this verse clearly demonstrates that this is not true (added emphasis in the verse is mine):

And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
-- Acts 15:7

And of course it wouldn't matter anyways because there was a sizable Jewish population in Rome and Babylon, as others here have noted, was essentially abandoned. It is also well documented that Clement wrote in the last First Century of Peter's martyrdom in Rome as did Tertullian a century later.

[Petronski]

The Scriptural source for the “not the Gentiles” canard is rather thin gruel.

[papertyger]

Ummm, just WHY is that, just because you assert it? Please prove to me that the saints in heaven can hear us, just like the saints we speak to on earth can.

And please notice I have not given one word of insult to you in return to the insulting manner you addressed me

Are you daft?

Here in Florida, there are only two reasons for speaking to a man the way you have written to MD: what we call "being low-bred," or looking for a fight.

You have some nerve protesting innocence after the "just because you assert it" comment.

Sado-evangelist do nothing BUT make up fatuous rules supporting their personal interpretation of Scripture.

Honestly, the "how can Mary be omniscient" line is as stupid and vacuous as the "Can God make a rock...etc." question.

[wagglebee]

It is a very recent invention even by Protestant standards.

[FourtySeven]

I know I will be mocked for saying this, but I think those who protest the loudest that they do not hate us, while showing the most hostility in what they say and how they say it, are completely sincere.

No mocking here, but I will say that, IMO, I not only think such people are sincere when they say "they do not hate us", but also are sincere when they say, "I don't hate you, I hate the Catholic Church" (or Catholicism, or the "teachings of Rome", etc).

At least I think some are sincere. However it's difficult to believe the above claim at times, when (apparently) deliberate opacity is employed during the middle of a debate/discussion. I'm guessing for some, that "hate for Catholicism, not you" runs pretty deep.

[reagandemocrat]

May I capitalize the first word of a sentence? (see, there, I just bowed down to myself....dang, I just did it again)

[Mad Dawg]

This is the kind of thing you get when you start out, NOT to see what the Bible says, but to prove that such and such a group is wrong.

[Uri’el-2012]

hey believed Jesus was Christ, making them Christians. Christ's Church founded circa AD 32 was the Catholic Church. The apostles were Catholic, the New Testament was written by Catholics.

ROTFLOL !

Do you worship YHvH the Elohim of Israel ?

or do you worship some other god and some other gospel ?

Do seek to cover your sins with the blood of the Passover Lamb: Yah'shua ?

[Frank Sheed]

Wow...amazing post!