The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

HOGWASH.

Except for the wordiness—for some of us a genetic defect—

I find the last paragraph of that post particularly Thoroughly untrue.

I can understand that some folks would have great difficulty seeing the lack of truth in that paragraph because of systemic blinders and biases at a core foundational level.

[Mad Dawg]

I’m hip to Babylon’s persisting into the CE, but could you define “pagan”? Seriously.

[Antoninus]

Pagan Fable ! Peter was commanded to go only to the Jew. He went to the 2nd largest Jewish city, Babylon, after Jerusalem.

No, Peter in "Babylon" is a Protestant fable of the past 200-odd years vintage. Again, we're supposed to believe that Protestant scholars of the 19th century with an ax to grind knew better than Tertullian or Ignatius of Antioch. BTW, Babylon was a desolate wasteland in the 1st century AD.

St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles

[CharlesWayneCT]

The problem I see with that is it just turns the issue around. Because I believe ALL the elect already have what is promised, just as Mary does — again meaning that Mary is not currently “special”, or in possession of something regarding salvation and sinlessness that the other Elect do not have.

I would however further agree that, being dead, Mary has a state different from the living Elect. Her state is the same as the other Dead Elect.

Having said THAT, I will further state that knowing what is true in the living world is hard enough without knowing what is true of those who have died. So long as nobody asks me to take personal action based on their belief, you can pretty much believe whatever you want about what happened to Mary when she died, or what happens to the rest of us. It doesn’t effect me now, and when I die I’ll find out what is next.

[Quix]

Israel’s protracted birth post Christ’s earthly walk . . . into the Nation of Promise as God committed himself to . . .

is scheduled to have the dragon attempt to abort that ‘child.’

In any case, there’s a list of reasons that the woman in Rev is NOT Mary, Christ’s mother.

I realize systemic biases prevent some from apprehending that truth.

[Mad Dawg]

Old Testament, the deluxe version with nothing left out.

[Quix]

What a farcical straw dog.

RC’s pretend with straight faces that the RC edifice has been a seamless homogeneous body of pure doctrine and practices from 2000 years ago.

What a pile of smelly political pontifications.

1. The RC edifice did not begin until about AD 400.

2. History—the UNrubberized version—is crystal clear that the RC edifice has been a mess with a long list of contradictory dogmatic pontifications and

3. a long list of horrific practices off and on for centuries.

Fantasies to the otherwise are . . . brazen fantasies.

Thankully, there are Christians that have the ability to see through such hogwash—including some RC’s hereon.

[Antoninus]

You are ignorant of history.

Uh, the city of Babylon was a desolation by the 1st century AD, according to the historical sources I've read. Can you provide a primary source (written by a witness in or around the 1st century AD) that says otherwise. Or some valid archaeological data?

[Petronski]

You might not recognize Tobit, but if you do not, it is probably because you have been robbed, your Bible redacted.

[Philo-Junius]

“I think I’m going to start praying that Holy Spirit give some of the key RC’s hereon—especially those with any hint of ears to hear and eyes to see—supernatural dreams, visitations, visions of what the authentic Mary is really doing in Heaven . . . as well as How God sees the RC perspective on Mary . . . as well as How God sees the double standard etc. stuff.

Could be interesting. We shall see. May not be His priority.”

I think that’s a great idea!

I’ll do the same for the Protestants, and we’ll all meet up at the end and compare notes!

PVO

[CharlesWayneCT]

Ah, interesting perspective.

It seems that if I want to call someone stupid, I just wait until someone else posts a reply to that person, and then reply to THAT poster saying “some people are just stupid”.

And if the other poster thinks THEY are that “some person”, well, they are taking a general statement and making it personal.

Do I understand correctly?

[Petronski]

1. The RC edifice did not begin until about AD 400.

That is irrelevant to Catholics. The Catholic Church began circa AD 32, at the Pentecost.

[Mad Dawg]

I think I get that. I was mainly arguing that what we say is not all that WAY far out there and especially that Mary's whatever is entirely because of and dependent on God in IHS.

The rest of the specialness would be another argument. But I think the first thing to settle is that we don't think she has anyting that she did not receive.

[Uri’el-2012]

BTW, Babylon was a desolate wasteland in the 1st century AD

More Pagan fables from the Roman church !

Read the history of the Jews by the Jews:

In the 1st century BCE a Jewish State was set up around Nehardea by two brothers,
ANILAI (Anilaos) and ASINAI (Asinaios), and this lasted for many years.
The Jews of Babylon (Babylon was an empire which contained Kurdistan) remained
in constant touch with the Jews of Israel and even supplied some of their leaders
(e.g. Hillel) with arms and supplies. During the Roman occupation, the Babylonian
Jews rose against the emperor Trajan, the revolt being bloodily suppressed by his
commander, Lucius Quietus (116 CE).

from The forced conversion of the Jewish community of Persia and the beginnings of the Kurds

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Petronski]

An interesting and novel proposal. Why don't you give it a try?

Do I understand correctly?

Why ask me?

[Mad Dawg]

Yep. The rule is you can insult an entire group, just not any individual member of the group.

I don't write this stuff.

[DungeonMaster]

You might not recognize Tobit, but if you do not, it is probably because you have been robbed, your Bible redacted.

Now I can see why that silly book was removed.

[Mad Dawg]

James is next, huh? If the theology doesn't accord with what we think it should be we'll just boot it out.

Anyway, seriesly, it does help show that when the canon is defined or redefined, things look different. This is hugh.

[Uri’el-2012]

The Catholic Church began circa AD 32, at the Pentecost.

The Torah observant Jews including the apostles were gathered
as required in Jerusalem for the celebration of the YHvH commanded
Feast of Shavuot ( also known as Pentecost in Koine Greek ) when
the Ru'ach HaKodesh descended on them.

All of the apostles were commanded to only go to the Jew.

Later Yah'shua chose Paul and Paul only to go to the gentiles.

The Roman church was founded after the Pagan Council at Nicea

b'SHEM Yah'shua

[Petronski]

The Roman church was founded after the Pagan Council at Nicea

Fine (whatever).

But the Catholic Church began AD 32 at the Pentecost.