Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Pagan Fable ! He went to the 2nd largest Jewish city, Babylon, after Jerusalem. If Peter would have preached to the gentile world, he would have disobeyed Yah'shua. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles.
Peter was commanded to go only to the Jew.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
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I would guess that maryz was tailoring her reply to fit the maturity of the one she was addressing.
Unaware that he was an angel, Tobit and Tobias asked Raphael for assistance and when he told them what he was he also told them that he reminded God of the prayers they had made to Him.
Unaware that he was an angel, Tobit and Tobias asked Raphael for assistance and when he told them what he was he also told them that he reminded God of the prayers they had made to Him.
The line calling upon one person to pray for another (or others). In other words, the Catholic, by uttering such a prayer, is putting someone "in between" himself and God. This is known as "intercessory prayer" and it is very biblical, as the following passages from the New Testament show:
"Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance..." (Col. 4:2-3 KJV 2) Here, St. Paul asks for prayers to be offered so that God will bless his preaching ministry.
"Brethren, pray for us." (I Thess. 5:25 KJV)
"But withal prepare me also a lodging: for I trust that through your prayers I shall be given unto you." (Philemon 1: 22 KJV)
Perhaps the most emphatic one is I Tim. 2:1-4: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (KJV)
As Mark Alessio points out elsewhere in this magazine, this passage immediately precedes the verse which reads, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Many Protestants cite this verse as if it refuted the principle of intercession (either "up to God" through saints, or "down from God" through the priesthood and sacraments), but they do this at the expense of the four preceding verses, which show that men’s interceding for other men is "good and acceptable in the sight of God."
In all seriousness, what are we to do when a brother tears and rends?
The reply so nice he made it twice.
I don't think a "brother," does...
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If that is the case, all of your replies should be made twice. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter
Wiki reveals Pagan Fables; it is not History !
YES.
IN KEY RESPECTS, JUST LIKE ALL OTHER CHRISTIAN MOTHERS.
That’s a major Protty point.
All the hoopla built up about Mary—all the horrific caracature is NONBiblical and UNGodly.
1600 years of rationalizations and embellishments do not change those facts.
I think I’m going to start praying that Holy Spirit give some of the key RC’s hereon—especially those with any hint of ears to hear and eyes to see—supernatural dreams, visitations, visions of what the authentic Mary is really doing in Heaven . . . as well as How God sees the RC perspective on Mary . . . as well as How God sees the double standard etc. stuff.
Could be interesting. We shall see. May not be His priority.
Your imagination runs wild.
That was Rome. The actual city of Babylon was abandoned and desolate at the time.
Pagan Fable !
You are ignorant of history.
Sorry, I don’t have the time or inclination to track that down.
Usually it’s any time the words and root words are referred to . . . or any time a Protty tracks down a core RC edifice document . . . the responses from the other side are . . . unimpressive at best . . . and typically strike me as I described . . . all manner of transparent, shallow rationalizaing and building skyscrapers on toothpick foundations.
I don’t expect most RC’s to see that unless and until Holy Spirit makes it real to them. I doubt He will be inclined to do that unless and until the individual RC concerned EARNESTLY AND PERSISTENTLY SEEKS GOD’S HIGHEST AND GOD’S TRUTH !!!!REGARDLESS!!!! on such issues.
Oh no no no. It is not personal, as it was not directed at any specific person(s).
Those who insist on making general statements "personal" are thin-skinned and they are the disruptors on an open thread.
I think
shuck and jive, slip and slide, run and hide
was also from a rock song.
I mean it in the sense that all humans have a tendency to use flurry tactics, obsfucations, rationalizations etc. to defend against having to uncomfortably face some significant part of their construct system as even remotely possibly needing reevaluation, reconstructing and laying aside of sacred cows in the process.
It seems that any aspect of history that differs with your theological viewpoint is what you call “pagan fable.”
That is amazingly convenient.
Book of Mormon?
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