Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Thanks!
That is a great web page. Sounds like a great congregation.
Been a long time since I’ve read any of his stuff. Is it on the net free? A book? Short story?
Will keep an eye out for it when I’m in 2nd hand bookstores.
Thx.
You are seriously mistaken. Scripture tells us that her soul magnifies the Lord. There is nothing hazardous about it.
Words are one thing. Action is another.
= =
Interesting.
Kind of like words that
sound like worship
waddle like worship
quack like worship
fly like worship
tail waggle like worship
lay eggs like worship;
swim like worship
bob like worship
accompanied with a host of such behaviors that
BEHAVE like worship.
Yet we are supposed to be . . . since we’re Prottys after all . . .
we are supposed to gullible enough to think that 0.000000% worship is involved in every last individual case of over a billion very human souls.
I’m not that stupid.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
yes, those very flexible Bibles printed in Alice’s Rabbit hole . . .
werein one can stretch and contort toothpicks sufficiently to build all manner of towering skyscrapers of mangled dogma on.
Yes, I think most of us Prottys are familiar with such ‘Bibles’ as cherished so extensively by a surprising chunk of the RC edifice.
I cannot read your gibberish.
As has been stated on another FR forum . . . or thread . . .
CALVARY CHAPEL’s network of congregations do so. Chuck Smith certainly does so.
And a lot of congregations under so inclined individual pastors do so.
That is not a fact.
No. Not more Protty error.
Just reading unadulterated, unmangled unvulcanized Scripture, straightforwardly and receptively.
Wow! Tridentine mass? Seven priests? Latin classes, bible studies, Aquinas lectures? Wow. What a wonderful parish. Ao nice to see. Way better than mine and I thought mine was top-notch. Wow.
Let’s review the “worship” thing again:
We’ve established that Protestants, especially Anglo-Saxon Protestants, have a low threshold of discomfort with physical expressions of respect, reverence OR worship.
Now, are there poorly catechised Catholics out there, especially thwarted women of a certain age, who prefer to direct their prayers to Mary, and conflate hyperdulia with latria? Sadly, it is documented, especially in the actions the Church occasionally is forced to take against the self-indulgent feminist Holy Sophia/Creator-Redeemer-Sanctifier types. Additionally, we have always seen the superstitious abuses of ignorance against which the Church has long taught, with historically varying degrees of success.
But, at the end of the day, abuse of hyperdulia does not invalidate proper use. The development of doctrine of the history of the Church has shown the importance of teachings about the unique relationship of the Blessed Virgin to her Son as a bulwark against all manner of anti-incarnational heresies from the time of Arius and Nestor to the modernists of the present day.
There are a number of plausible reasons Christ’s blood brothers and sisters did not get Mary’s elder care—EVIDENTLY, DID NOT.
1. John was likely the preferred choice of Christ—given that He delcared John well above all other mortals yet lesser than any Heaven residing folks.
2. Christ’s blood siblings may have had enough of Mary’s doting on Christ, still tending to see him as the rug rat they once knew . . . and simply didn’t want such family obligations on their shoulders.
3. They may have been afraid of governmental repressioins for Christ’s blood relatives.
4. They may have been ‘unspiritual’ enough that Mary would not have been comfortable under their care.
. . .
The fact is, SCRIPTURE refers to Christ’s blood siblings. Scripture does NOT call them cousins, uncles, aunts, nephews, hounddogs or anything else—Scripture calls them Christ’s blood brothers. The context and import of the words and phrases used is quite sufficiently clear to folks reading Scripture to learn of Scripture rather than rewriting or stretching ‘vulcanized’ Scripture to suit their !!!!TRADITION!!!! bound fantasies and biases.
Arguing from silence is hazardous on all sides. However, I’ve never found it a negative thing to take Scripture at face value to believe that it means what it says and act accordingly.
Perhps since the ruling intellectual elite of the RC edifice get bored not having Inquisitional victims to mangle and have therefore over the centuries contented themselves with mangling Scripture . . . of course, always in ways which control the serfs more and elevate the hierarchy as exclusively a list of things . . .
OUR truly true truest truth is MUCH MORE RIGHTEOUS AND LOFTY than that of those hick Prottys over there . . .
that attitude tends to go over well with certain personalities from certain types of backgrounds.
Not really trying to be hard on you in this reply. I appreciate your tone and attitude. That’s just the best way I know how to put it quickly.
I am so very blessed there, you don’t know. We have 875 families, 275 Altar Boys and six masses on Sunday as late as 8:30pm.
And everyone volunteers there. They charge us 40.00 for CCD, free for Kindergarten and High School. Even the front office is manned by volunteers. I used to be in the bathroom cleaning ministry before we expanded and hired someone!
Now I’m just a lector.
Hogwash.
A lot of the Prottys I know don’t think Mary ‘blows the curve’ at all.
We see her as more or less equal to a lot of other Bible believing Christians in Scripture and since.
It’s not Prottys who have the Fantastical Mary Elevation Syndrome.
BTW, We don’t deprecate the authentic Mary.
Some of us seek to sherd wholesale the charaicature the RC edifice has turned her into. . . . as she would most likely do were she to be in bodily earthly form again in our era.
P210: Honoring parents P211: Fearing parents N318: Not cursing parents N319: Not smiting parents The 613 Mitzvot
Re the gates of hell Scripture.
Have you ever pondered that Scripture in light of the fact that gates are DEFENSIVE?
Most sermons kind of give the impression that the gates of hell are running around loose assaulting the church.
Please refrain from your blasphemy of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Wasn’t it this issue that caused you trouble before? Perhaps you should just refrain.
In Christ,
Jesuitical |ˌje zh oōˈitikəl; ˌjez(y)oō-|adjective
of or concerning the Jesuits.
• dissembling or equivocating, in the manner associated with Jesuits.
You speak for you.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.