The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Mad Dawg]

We consider him about as we consider Joseph Smith.

Except with better clothes.

[andysandmikesmom]

I dont know that I have ever been a sweet younger or middle aged lady, dont know if I could carry out being a sweet little old lady...

Many of the elderly are difficult to care for because they are ill, or have dementia, many are very bitter about being in a nursing home, many have already lost most of their families...and worst of all they have lost their independence..and no one can blame them for being angry and difficult..for many elderly, they really do vent their anger towards those who are caring for them, but we who care for them, do understand...so when they are in the immediate process of dying, if no one else can be there, to comfort them, it is up to the nursing home staff to try to be the comforter, so to speak, to ease that transition, as you say, from this world to the next...

Regardless of how they acted in the nursing home, while they were still ‘lively’, for lack of a better word, when it comes to the very end of their lives, there is nothing more of a blessing than to sit with them, hold their hand, talk with them, if they want, read to them if they wish...just doing even the smallest thing for them, at that time, is often of great comfort to them, and frankly, being able to do even the smallest thing for them, comforts me as well..so it is a two way street

One time, I remember in the middle of the night, when it is more quiet than during the regular shifts, we had someone coming down the hall, with his walker...it was one of the elderly gentlemen residents, who was so distraught...he came into the nurses station, so fearful of what would happen to him when he died...he told us he had been a wicked, wicked man during his lifetime, and now that he was in a nursing home, with time on his hands, he reflected over his life, and was terrified about what a wicked man he was...he feared what God had in store for him, when he died...he feared all was too late, for him to be saved...

I and a nurse I worked with, told him the story from the Bible...now, I am not well versed in the Bible, but did remember this story, tho dont know where in the Bible it is found, but I just remember reading it..my exact details are cloudy here, but it was the story about how a workman hired a man to do some work for him, in the morning, then hired one in the afternoon, and then hired one in the evening...all three man worked for the workman that day...at the end of the day, when it came time to get paid, all three men got paid exactly the same amount of money...the man who worked from morning till night, was miffed that the men who worked only from the afternoon, or early evening, until night, got the same wages as he...the workman reminded the morning worker, that he had agreed to his wages for the days work done...we tried to tell this old distraught gentleman, that this story showed that whether one comes to the Lord, early, midstage, or late in life, the reward is the same...

In other words, it was not too late for this gentleman, to come to the Lord...oh, his face lit up, tears streamed down his face, and he asked us to pray with him, which of course we did...and during that praying time, all sorts of things spilled forth from this man...

This old man, had no family, had no one visit him in the nursing home...he wanted a Bible, so the nursing home got him one..from that time forward this old man would always be found reading his Bible, and he seemed happy and relieved...

He died several months later, I wish I had been with him, when he was dying, but I was not...in any case, I hope that his dying was eased, because he realized he could come to the Lord, at his late stage in life, that it was not too late...

Now, I dont know how anyone here, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, looks at this story of mine...and actually, I dont know if I even care...all I know is, that for whatever reason, this old man needed help, and we tried to point that old man towards hope, in the only way we knew how...

I am sorry to anyone here who feels I have strayed way off subject here, considering the topic of the thread...I know I could have written this rather large post via private mail, but I guess perhaps I just like to make people aware that often the nursing home staff, is tasked with more than just taking care of the residents physical needs...sometimes we have to veer off into the residents spiritual needs as well, and that is something we are never really trained for, but we plod along, doing the best we can...I know that nursing home staffs often get a bad rap for the awful behavior for the few....but truly, most nursing home staff, do all that they can, to make a aged residents life, as pleasant as possible until they die..

Again, sorry for going so far astray, if anyone feels this was inappropriate, they can ask to have my post deleted...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

So the Reformed God demands that all people everywhere repent but prevents most of them from doing so and condemns them to everlasting death.

God prevents no one from repenting and believing. The natural man does not want to repent and believe. For the natural man, the things of God are foolishness.

Mercifully, God does, however, enable some men to repent and believe by first regenerating their dead hearts into a new creature in Christ who can spiritually discern the truth.

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:10-16

Can a man who has not been reborn by the Holy Spirit repent and believe? No. He must be born again, not by the will of men but by the will of God.

I realize this flies in the face of the modern religion embraced by the RCC, of the gnostic "wisdom" that says men can do anything they want to do and God should be grateful some of them eventually come to Him, but that's just not the God of the Scriptures.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13

For a more thorough, Biblical understanding of who chooses whom, read the following iron-clad defense of God's sovereignty over all things...

PREDESTINATION

"If you're a Christian, you've heard of predestination. You must have because the Bible uses the word and teaches the idea. But what is predestination? How does free will fit in? What about man's sinfulness and God's sovereignty? Is predestination a fair doctrine or does it make God out to be dispassionate and tyrannical? In this paper, I will attempt to answer those questions.

Predestination is the doctrine that God alone chooses (elects) who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural way: to hell. This is predestination.

In response to this definition, some will protest, "Unfair!" It may seem so at first, but you will see that it is quite fair. More importantly, it is biblical..."

The Roman Catholic church of the past actually used to believe in and teach the doctrine of predestination much more than it does now. Pity the RCC has lost even this.

[Petronski]

The portrayal is either (a) no belief or (b) infallible dogma.

The reality is that a particular doctrine can be

• heresy (Christ was merely a prophet)
• no teaching (dogs v. cats)
• a belief that is acceptable but not required (Fatima)
• a doctrine that is proposed but not taught (co-Redemptrix)
• a doctrine that is widely believed/taught but not dogmatic (Assumption, pre-1950)
• infallible doctrine (Assumption, post-1950)

And probably a few more possibilities that don't occur to me now. Also this caveat, that list was prepared impromptu, so blame this lowly correspondent if something is incorrect.

[Mad Dawg]

Enat’s talking about

If it's all the same to you I think I'd prefer for enat to clarify the remarks enat makes.

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, I dont know if I would go that far, to state that ‘point’ counters exist only in someone’s mind..and I am sure, that no one feels like plowing through tons of threads, to find the instance of someone counting ‘points’...I have read many bizarre posts on FR in general, so it would not surprise me at all, if someone was counting their ‘points’....it is just so weird...

[enat]

You were right there at God’s appointed time with just the right words and directions for one God was calling. It is amazing that both of your lives were prepared for such a time as that appointment. This may sound “Calvinistic” and even deterministic, but it a lot more comforting to know that God is taking care of His own than just mere circumstance or coincidence.

You are blessed and you blessed him and have blessed us with the testimony. Thank You.

[Petronski]

Iron-clad?

LOL

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks and bless you for what you did and for the story.

[MarkBsnr]

***We consider him about as we consider Joseph Smith.

Except with better clothes.***

And no hat.

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping.

[MarkBsnr]

***God prevents no one from repenting and believing. The natural man does not want to repent and believe. For the natural man, the things of God are foolishness.***

The Reformed God MADE man that way. First causes, the WCF notwithstanding.

***I realize this flies in the face of the modern religion embraced by the RCC, of the gnostic “wisdom” that says men can do anything they want to do and God should be grateful some of them eventually come to Him***

Answer the plain and true verses, Dr. E., that I have provided, if you please.

You have provided verse from 2 Cor 10 in which its explains that man cannot seek God without God and cannot know God without God teaching. No departure from Christian truth.

This does not explain away the verses that I gave you that God wills all men to salvation. How do you explain them? You cannot without departing from your theology.

Predestination? The Church’s views on predestination were set a millennium before the Reformation.

New Advent:

We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607). Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797). Just as it is God’s true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795). Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827). As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631). Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.).

Pity that more do not make sure of what the Church believes and believed, rather than post foolishness that is easily refuted.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The RCC used to preach Augustine's Scriptural view of predestination. Since the Reformation and the leading of Trent, the RCC has abandoned the truth for the uncertainty of men's "ability" to make themselves righteous.

This does not explain away the verses that I gave you that God wills all men to salvation.

Asked and answered.

I gave you Calvin's understanding of that verse, and I told you I found his answer in accord with the Gospel. In that verse, according to the rest of the chapter, God is not discussing individuals, but "all" types of men from all nations and races, as opposed to the OT understanding of God's people being all those believers among racial Israel.

If God desired that all men everywhere for all time would be saved, then all men everywhere for all time would be saved. God gets what He wants. He is not some frustrated, inept, impotent god of men's imaginings; He is the creator of all that exists who has "declared the end from the beginning."

That men presume to tell God whether or not they are members of His family is foolishness. God adopted whom He will from before the foundation of the world, before anyone could do anything "evil or good" (Romans 9:11.) And by that adoption those men will, at a time of God's choosing, believe in Christ and know their salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.

We are saved by grace and not debt (Romans 4:4.)

"Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints" -- Epheisans 1:16-18

God does not enlighten everyone's eyes, or then everyone would understand and believe.

Men are like Paul, murders and liars unless and until God gives them new eyes to see and a new heart to believe.

"For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified...

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:4,7

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What those paintings primarily showed was a reverence for Christ and His mother.

But they also serve by example as a warning to all Catholics who think this business of Mary as "co-redeemer" is just a result of aging JPII's wandering mind or some over-zealous adherents, and isn't intended to be taken seriously. As we've seen and read on this very thread, Catholics are very serious when it somes to Mary and just how much they "adore" her.

Those paintings help illustrate how heresy can begin small, in dribs and drabs, in paintings and statues and thoughts and reverence and kneeling and prayers, and eventuallly all these small errors lead up to and embrace the big lie of worshipping the fiction of some "sinless creature" instead of the one and only Creator.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Oh if there were a "Calvin League" with William Donovan at it's head these attacks would not go unanswered. :)

LOL. Calvin don't need to stinkin' league. 8~)

All anyone has to do is read Calvin and decide for themselves. Calvin either reasoned according to God's word or he didn't.

Calvinism is all about trust. We trust God to accomplish His holy will for His glory and the welfare of His family. Romans 8:28. Who could desire for more?

[wagglebee]

You’re missing the point, they ALL have Assumption in their titles and they were ALL painted several hundred years ago.

[MarkBsnr]

***I gave you Calvin’s understanding of that verse, and I told you I found his answer in accord with the Gospel. In that verse, according to the rest of the chapter, God is not discussing individuals, but “all” types of men from all nations and races, as opposed to the OT understanding of God’s people being all those believers among racial Israel.***

Then we shall have to agree to disagree. I find Reformed descriptions of God’s will that all be saved to be disingenuous and mostly silent when confronted with the actual verses - verses that span the NT (and have some examples in the Old).

***”Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints” — Epheisans 1:16-18***

This in no way supports predestination to hell.

***”For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified...
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?” — 1 Corinthians 4:4,7***

Neither does this. The plethora of verse from the Old, the Gospels and the rest of the New that I have quoted and may continue to quote, deny predestination to hell.

I wish that I could somehow convince.

[Petronski]

Those paintings help illustrate how heresy can begin small, in dribs and drabs, in paintings and statues and thoughts and reverence and kneeling and prayers, and eventuallly all these small errors lead up to and embrace the big lie of worshipping the fiction of some "sinless creature" instead of the one and only Creator.

Good thing this load of hooey has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

[Petronski]

God gets what He wants.

Yes. And what He wants is for beings He created with free will to choose to love Him.

He is not some frustrated, inept, impotent god of men's imaginings...

Of course not. He's also not the dark sadistic god created by an autocratic, megalomaniacal French lawyer in his own sick image.

That men presume to tell God whether or not they are members of His family is foolishness.

It is His will. No foolishness.

[Petronski]

God does not enlighten everyone's eyes, or then everyone would understand and believe.

That does not follow logically.