Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
The intent of your words was very clear and not very Christian.
I thought you were better than that. I really did.
Thanks for your ping. Great to see some rational sanity on such things.
If all men were chosen by God to have their sins paid for by Jesus Christ, then all men would be forgiven and all men would be saved.
Are all men saved?
You offer no evidence from Ephesians 1 for any of this universal salvation you're pushing. OTC, the evidence of Scripture is against your opinion.
To whom is Paul addressing his epistle? To those who have been graced with faith in Christ.
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers" -- Eph. 1:15-16"Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Your theology is pablum. God loves with specificity and life-changing intent. Therefore Christ knows His own because the Father gave them to Him, according to His plan of creation from before the foundation of the world, before anyone could do any "good or evil," and thus Christ will lose none of them.
You're logic fails again.
Some of those whom Christ came to save will reject Him nonetheless, fail to believe, and not be saved.
That's not what I said.
Maybe you need to rethink what you're wishing for.
Maybe you ought to stop lying about what I wished for.
“Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
Who made the “gate strait” and the “way narrow” or since they are metaphors, who made Christ “the way” so only a few would find Him?
All we know is what God tells us of Himself and the world. He tells us that all men are fallen, and none seek Him unless He first drags them to Him by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
He tells us He has graced with faith those whom He has loved from before the foundation of the world, before they could do anything good or evil, so that election depends on His mercy alone, and not on men's willing or running.
What we do know of "time," according to God's revealed will in Scripture, is that men are regenerated first by God in order that they believe and be saved. Men do not regenerate themselves. It is a supernatural act of God, given as a free gift of mercy, and not debt.
You referenced my homepage where we see Paul's take on his own abilities...
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." -- 1 Corinthians 15:10
Since you quoted Calvin, let's read the entire quote where we find Scriptural evidence of his opinion...
"...As we have said, there is no real difference among men, except in their hidden election. Some theologians would make foreknowledge the mother of election, and that very foolishly and childishly. They say that some men are chosen and others rejected by God, because God, from whom nothing is hidden, foresees of what sort each man will be. But I ask, Whence comes virtue to one and vice to the other? If they say, "From free will," surely creation was before free will. This is one point. Besides, we know that all men were created alike in the person of Adam. . . . And what does this mean except that the condition of all who come from the one root is the same? I am not discussing "special gifts." I admit that if our nature had not been corrupted and we all had the same assurance of blessedness, we would be endowed with a variety of gifts. . . . But since in Adam all are sinners, deserving of eternal death, it is obvious that nothing but sin will be found in men. Therefore, God's foreknowledge cannot be the reason of our election, because when God [looks into the future and] surveys all mankind, he will find them all, from the first to the last, under the same curse. So we see how foolishly triflers prattle when they ascribe to mere naked foreknowledge what must be founded on God's good pleasure. . . . When Moses prays to God not to break his covenant with Abraham, God answers, "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." What does he mean? He means that the reason for God's keeping some for himself and rejecting 295 others is to be sought nowhere but in God himself. When he says, "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion," the repetition may seem empty and dull; but it is in reality emphatic. . . . The reason for compassion is compassion itself..."
Mercy, and not debt.
Loitering on my homepage I also remembered this gem from blue-duncan, who has been absent of late and is missed.
"The whole sacrificial system was poor copy of the reality that was in heaven and looked forward to it breaking into time. A believer's life will catch up with his election in time. At present, believers are seen as perfect in Christ and yet our sanctification is in process and ultimately when we are in the presence of Jesus our sanctification will catch up with the perfection that God sees us in now." -- blue-duncan (9/30/06)
To God belongs all the glory.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Let’s look at this hypothetical scenario:
There is a married couple, the Smiths, and to all outward appearances they have the ideal marriage — they have a nice home, wonderful children, they are well-respected in their community and are active in their church.
However, their private life is very different. They are both verbally and physically abusive to each other and their children. The man drinks all the time and the wife is addicted to precription drugs. They are nearing financial bankruptcy. They are both unfaithful in their marriage.
So, let’s assume that a young woman who is a member of the same church as the Smiths has just become engaged and she and her fiance are attending pre-marriage sessions with their pastor. The pastor asks what she is looking for in a marriage and she proceeds to say that she wants a nice home, a strong marriage, a loving spouse and children and a strong relationship with God. She concludes by saying, “I want a marriage just like the Smiths have.”
So, my question is this, is this young woman hoping for the hellish marriage the Smiths have or is she hoping for what she THINKS it is?
“Christ is talking about the difficulty of following Him”
“Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
Isn’t there a contradiction in the two thoughts?
***“***You have no idea what you are talking about.***
Izzat so?”
You are right, let me rephrase it.
You obviously don’t know what you are talking about.***
Try this on for size. Many of the participants were not bishops or clergy recognized by the Anglican Communion. How valid is this new replacement Anglican Communion II going to be?
And that could be anyone....
Not at all. But I frequently see others admonished for same. Perhaps some are bribing the RM? I’d be happy to bribe the RM, because I have a lot to say. :D
Somebody let me know the price. I’ll take two.
God will have us all to be saved, if we choose to follow Him.
The gate is narrow, the path difficult, but they are open to all.
***If all men were chosen by God to have their sins paid for by Jesus Christ, then all men would be forgiven and all men would be saved.***
Free will, Dr. E. I give you the Gospel and you give me misinterpretations of Christ.
Eph 1:
7
In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his grace
8
that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight,
9
he has made known to us the mystery 5 of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him
10
as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth.
All things in heaven and on earth - that includes all men. Why will you not admit it?
John 3:
16
For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
34
For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift 16 of the Spirit.
35
The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
1 Tim 2
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Shall I continue? The Gospels are full of such verse and so is the NT including Paul.
You post verse and they are correct; I post verse and they are correct. The only way to reconcile them is to discard the evil of Calvinism and admit that God came for all men and that he wills everyone to be saved.
You again mischaracterize my posts. I did not say that everyone will be saved. I said what Paul said above - that He WILLS everyone to be saved. How does Calvin explain this one away?
***Your theology is pablum.***
It is the theology of Christ, not a degenerate hood.
*** God loves with specificity and life-changing intent. Therefore Christ knows His own because the Father gave them to Him, according to His plan of creation from before the foundation of the world, before anyone could do any “good or evil,” and thus Christ will lose none of them.***
Your supposition of an elite is evil and contrary to the love of Christ. God’s love is not for all? Not what the Bible says. God hijacks the elite? Not what the Bible says. God’s love is so great that even when people commit evil, He is ready to forgive them if they repent of their sins. Even the followers of Calvin.
***Isn’t there a contradiction in the two thoughts?***
Only in our individual perceptions of the two thoughts. The Bible is Scripture; our interpretation is human. That is why the Church is the pillar of truth, not Scripture.
James 3:
6
The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.
7
For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species,
8
but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
Hmmm. Sounds like my first wife...
"...that exalteth himself in the church against Christ,"
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