Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus' call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.Trying to reduce the Sacrament of Penance to merely the penance is almost clever.It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner's personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.
1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.
It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6
It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8
Almost.
Trouble is, it's not accurate.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The numbers who are are infinitesimal compared to the many who are sacrificing buildings and accounts to stay with the framework of the orthodox Anglican tradition. The recent GAFCON conference represented over 30 million orthodox Anglicans who are not looking to Rome.
So, in the ftd universe, if Mary is like Jesus in ONE respect, she is like Him in ALL respects.Wow. Do please show me where I said it was unimportant.
In the Mad Dawg universe, being born sinless and living sinless, and being the only other human being other then Christ to do so, is suppose to be unimportant.
There really is a problem here with the concepts of distinction and "part and whole". If I disagree that Mary's sinlessness, which I affirm, makes her like Christ in every respect, then I am told that I consider it unimportant.
To which I can only say, "Huh?"
The problem with applying the notion of total depravity to the role and use of reason is that, while reason is indeed tainted, if we reject the use of reason all we have left is vagueness and emotion.
At least that would account for the nature of many of the so-called "arguments" put up against the Church.
“And just who, exactly, would read the 23rd Psalm in such a fashion?....”
Any one who thinks that it is their good works and efforts that fits them for heaven.
Reducing the Sacrament of Penance to just the penance is the bizarre part.
Discussion of the Sacrament is given 76 paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1422
I take comfort in their repeated arguing against what we do NOT teach. Clearly what we DO teach is discouragingly difficult for them to tackle.
Well then, that excludes those who follow Catholic teachings.
“Well then, that excludes those who follow Catholic teachings”
Could be, could be.
Excludes them from your categorization, not from Heaven.
What about those who think that God gives good works and effort through which He fits folks for heaven?
You may have something there.
“What about those who think that God gives good works and effort through which He fits folks for heaven?”
From a very wise man,
Acts 5:38-39, “And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God”
Those verses don’t refer to Mad Dawg’s question.
Good grief.
What I'm trying to say is EVERY good gift is from the Father of lights, and efforts and works are good gifts. My right hand may have been an instrument in getting the victory, but it did not get the victory itself. Something like that.
***You have no idea what you are talking about.***
Izzat so?
***The numbers who are are infinitesimal compared to the many who are sacrificing buildings and accounts to stay with the framework of the orthodox Anglican tradition.***
How many and where are the many?
***The recent GAFCON conference represented over 30 million orthodox Anglicans who are not looking to Rome.***
Represented? You could say that since I live in Iowa, that Tom Harkin or Chet Culver represent me. Let’s compare the number of attendees at Lambeth versus GAFCON. And also look at the increasing Gnosticism that GAFCON promoted. Orthodox Anglican? No way. The southern hemisphere Anglicans are urged to develop their own vision of Anglicanism. The Episopagans are splintering like a rotten old oak tree in a windstorm.
***Those verses don’t refer to Mad Dawg’s question.
Good grief.***
Maybe the Reformed Holy Spirit installs a random verse generator during the hijacking.
In fact, the phrase "salvation by faith alone" has never been alien to Catholic theology.
It was in fact always Catholic teaching that we can only be saved by Christ alone, that is is only God's unmerited, unmeritable grace that lifts us out of the state of sin and death into that of divine sonship, and that even the so-called "meritorious acts" which the redeemed perform in the state of justice are only "meritorious by grace," attributable, that is, the the love of Christ working in us and through us.
Insofar as the justification of man is God's work alone, we could speak with Luther of "extrinsic" justice. It is indeed also interior and personal.
Luther too, in that same commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, affirms that this extrinsic justice "dwells in us by faith and hope," that it is "in us" though it does not belong to us (in nobis est, non nostra), that it thus, according to the Council of Trent, "inheres" in justified men (atque ipsis inhaeret, sess, 6, cap. 7, can 11).
... quoniam in saeculum misericordia ejus.
Nice to see that you are getting more familiar with the Catechism; however, this DOES NOT mean that the Blessed Mother was perfect. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve were perfect before the Fall?
Totally incorrect.
Note the expression, 'among women', she was not blessed above all mankind!
And this means that the Blessed Mother must have been in ALL WAYS more blessed than Eve.
Do you agree that she sinnned as a human being?
I most certainly DO NOT.
“What I’m trying to say is EVERY good gift is from the Father of lights, and efforts and works are good gifts”
I understand what you were saying, that’s why I quoted Gamaliel’s “this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it”
His advice came from the continuing accusation that the works of Apostles were not from God. Gamaliel was rightly pointing out that not all good works are consequences of faith in God, some are just natural or from ulterior venal motives i.e. “wood, hay, stubble”. Those will not fit them for heaven but will perish with them.
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