Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I still have no idea what you are talking about.
I do think that the Douay-Rheims got 1Cor.1:18 correct in translating save as 'saved' not 'being saved', but ofcourse, you just reject that as quickly as you do any Bible that doesn't line up with your Church's theology.
508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life. (emphasis added)
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY
Challenge met.
What difference does it make? Fact or fiction, believing the fact or the fiction has no consequence to salvation does it? Would believing McCain or Obama to be the best choice for president have any bearing on one's salvation? What is your point?
You're mistaken. I'm Catholic, a member of Christ's Church, the one Christ Founded.
According to who? You?
According to who? You?
According to your religion.
This union of the Mother and the Son in the work of redemption[57] reaches its climax on Calvary, where Christ "offered himself as the perfect sacrifice to God" (Heb. 9:14) and where Mary stood by the cross (cf. Jn. 19:25), "suffering grievously with her only-begotten Son. There she united herself with a maternal heart to His sacrifice, and lovingly consented to the immolation of this victim which she herself had brought forth" http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06mc.htm
What difference does it make? Fact or fiction, believing the fact or the fiction has no consequence to salvation does it? Would believing McCain or Obama to be the best choice for president have any bearing on one's salvation? What is your point?
I asked a simple question, was Mary a sinner or not.
So, what is your point in not answering the question?
It does affect salvation if one is looking to Mary for anything, when one ought to be looking to Christ for EVERYTHING.
Amazing how Roman Catholics on these threads avoid actually stating what their Church actually teaches!
The 'Christ' of 2Cor.11:4.
You really don’t understand the distinction being drawn, do you?
There is Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church, which He founded and which is guided by the Holy Spirit; and then there are those who came along later preaching a different christ, making up sola scriptura and sola fide, deceiving hundreds of millions of souls.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I pray to God and Christ every day...and the saints.
There is nothing wrong with it, and I am not making up my own religion.
God bless,
Rex
“According to your religion.
This union of the Mother and the Son in the work of redemption[57] reaches its climax on Calvary, where Christ “offered himself as the perfect sacrifice to God” (Heb. 9:14) and where Mary stood by the cross (cf. Jn. 19:25), “suffering grievously with her only-begotten Son. There she united herself with a maternal heart to His sacrifice, and lovingly consented to the immolation of this victim which she herself had brought forth” http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06mc.htm";
She bowed to God’s Will which is more and better than I would have done as a mother if my son had been tortured.
The spear would have been in my hand and in someone’s chest.
You, as people do on these threads, distort our beliefs.
But then again, Calvinists can’t believe Mary could possibly consent to anything other than an Almighty abrogation of her body.
***Men are not good and therefore men believe.***
Huh? Believe in what? I thought that you guys claim that unregenerated men do not believe.
***Men are fallen and incapable of belief unless God first grabs hold of them and drags them to Him, imputing to them the righteousness of Christ in place of their own fleshly nature.***
The hijacking Reformed Holy Spirit. And the elect are those who experience Stockholm Syndrome.
***The only time the phrase “full of grace” is used in Scripture it is used to describe Jesus Christ. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) FULL OF GRACE and truth.” — John 1:14 You take the glory that is God’s alone and attribute it to a creature. Warmed-over paganism.
Amen.***
You guys really don’t know what’s in the Bible, do you?
Acts 6:
8
Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people.
How can you guys believe in sola scriptura when you all make statements like the above and then compound the error when you all agree with each other.
We have been having this discussion in our Sunday School. A point by the teacher was made that I would like to have a Calvinist explanation on.
In the garden, Adam and Eve sinned. According to what the bible tells us of the incident, we would assume that they were then spiritually dead, right? According to Calvinist beliefs then they would be unable to answer God’s call, yet, when God did call “Adam where art thou?” Adam answered....
If they were spiritually dead, and there is no indication they weren’t, how did they answer?
KJV:
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.
Yep, it’s even in “the original.”
Gnats and mosquitoes, sir. The annoyance of fleas and ticks. The irritation of scattered colonies of bedbugs.
The brightest angel has a multiplicity of human tools with which to attack the Church.
The above is excerpted from your post, using the technique often used by those who excerpt from the Catechism while arguing against the Church.
And then we'll move on to discussing the structure of the human arm, not anatomy, and then the dread aspects of an Obama presidency, not politics or government, and maybe after that sheep-raising not farming.
Was Mary born sinless and did she live sinless is the question that this thread is addressing,
This no doubt explains why the title of the thread is
Yes. I like such bizarre distinctions:
bi - I'm talkin' 'bout - ZARRE!
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