Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Ping to 1,038.
I change my mind: THIS one is your best tagline candidate yet.
Just going by what you've capitalized here, I guess you bow to Bereans, Calvin, Protestants, the Bible and God.
Forgive my skepticism, but I’ve always found the whole family leaving the Church en masse thing a little suspect. I’m not saying that it’s never happened, but I’ve never met any and your explanation just sounds a little too convenient (ALL of your neighbors were devout Catholics and just up and left the Church and took their entire families with them).
I know just as many former Protestants including my hubby, but do you know the difference between the two groups?
Former Protestants don’t spend their time on Political websites slamming Catholic doctrine. They are satisfied to know that they made the right decisions for themselves. God Love them!!!!
Stepford Wives.
No, I think they really believe these things, but it is certainly the enemy that tries to decieve people into beleiving that Jesus could be jealous of his loving mother, or that our love of all things associated with God is somehow evil. There is also the problem that sometimes much of our practices are done more out of tradition and the original Love quotient isn't experienced by some Catholics in name only.
Catholics have been given so many wonderfull gifts from God and many of us our like spoiled brats who completely take them for granted. I know I did, I certainly appreciate and understand things so much better now. My Protestant convert friends are some of the best Catholics. They appreciate God's gifts more than some of us who have always had them.
One more thing, If God "wills" that Catholics leave the Church, then why is it taking so long? Why are there so few Calvinists? There are more Catholics than Protestants in Switzerland of all places! Why do Catholics leave the Church only to return a while later with a huge sense of relief?
All the time we read stories of very prominent and well known Protestant clergymen and theologians converting to Catholicism. Why do we NEVER hear of the reverse? Who was the last bishop or cardinal to leave the Church? Who was the last published theologian to leave?
Nor do the tell their still-Protestant relatives that they are damned or anything else along those lines.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear THE LORD, and depart from evil. Proverbs 3:7The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. Proverbs 12:15
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but THE LORD weigheth the spirits. Proverbs 16:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but THE LORD pondereth the hearts. Proverbs 21:2
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. Proverbs 30:12
Yeah, that's a real good plan you got there.
Do I always get it right? No.
But you certainly always *act* like you've got it right, so what's the difference?
I've known literally dozens and dozens of former Catholics who finally broke down and opened their Bibles and read them for themselves and were converted to the truth found in the Gospel that men are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory alone.
And I've known literally hundreds of Bible-only types who are carried about by every wind of doctrine. It often takes a long time for these poor people to figure out the lack of spiritual power with Reformed traditions is endemic.
Well, there was that fake nun...
They have vanity plates on their cars that read "ELECT."
Amen, brother. Preach it!
I once was blind, BUT NOW I SEE!
The old "Proselytizing-2x4-to-the-head of Love."
Thank you Calvin may I have another!?!
I'm sure the Clintons do too, the Calvinists should feel privileged to be in such auspicious company.
Nor do the tell their still-Protestant relatives that they are damned or anything else along those lines.
But it doesn’t keep us from praying for them. Honestly, it is like I became rich but I can’t share my wealth with those I love the most. I don’t despair for their souls, I feel bad that they are missing out on encounters with Jesus now.
In March my sister was disillusioned with her church and her faith was failing. I recognized immediately that it was really her faith in humanity that was failing. We talked a little, not enough, and I sent her off with ‘Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth’.
Some do seem to spend too much time in their own heads (and their own interpretations!) so to speak -- must be hot and stuffy there, like what Chesterton says about the insane (from memory): We say of the lunatic that he has holes in his head; rather we should say that he doesn't have enough holes in his head -- he should let some fresh air in! :)
I see the Revelation 3:9 verse alongside the golden calf episode in Exodus 32:
And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron. And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. - Exodus 32:1-5
But God will have none of that.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:1-6
Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9
Only when God Himself passes judgment on the synagogue of Satan, rejecting them, and forces them to worship at our feet will it be ok. God's will, not man's.
It is never ever ever ok to worship before any one or any thing. We are to worship God. Period.
There is only ONE Great Commandment:
Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:1-5
To God be the glory, not man, never man!
I think it's because any time a Catholic does something undeniably righteous, it is a witness against their unbelief.
Remember Korah is a model of apostasy, and his sin was to despise the authority of Moses.
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