The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Give ‘em time.

[MarkBsnr]

http://www.kurskroot.com/history_of_icons.html tells of the early icons of Peter, Paul and, of course, Jesus.

***Among other things, the defense provided PLAINLY, though inadvertently, admits that statuary (images) was a later addition, certainly *not* practiced by the early Roman Church.

One can therefore extrapolate that there was also no “veneration” before statuary (no bowing down or praying before, no toe-slurping) in the early Church either.***

The point at which statuary started to become popular is not entirely clear.

[1000 silverlings]

Well antiChrists have their fans, more power to them.

"if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

He better be wearing a hat.

[OLD REGGIE]

Truly? Because this is harrassment

It happened during a juvenile exchange of posts between some posters wherein enat was never mentioned. While the intent was obvious, it satisfied the posting rules. Plausible deniability dontchaknow?

[MarkBsnr]

***The Holy Spirit brings us to our knees in prayer.***

I will be honest here and not intentionally contentious. I have never seen a Calvinist on his knees in prayer.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Does God know who will receive faith in Christ, and who will not, and yet does God create both those categories of men anyway?

If and when you ever get around to answering that question, let me know.

[1000 silverlings]

Yes, but Old Rivers noticed, he’s smarter than they think.

[1000 silverlings]

For all the "Friends of Esau", aka FOES. Notice the prophecy of Obadiah:

1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I will be honest here and not intentionally contentious. I have never seen a Calvinist on his knees in prayer.

I wouldn't expect you to.

We worship according to the pattern Christ established for us...

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him...

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." -- Matthew 6:6-8,16-18

[tiki]

Yes, I’m serious and I’d explain it to you if I thought you really wanted to know.

[MarkBsnr]

***I’d hate to be a Calvinist and think that most of my family and friends are probably going to hell.

No Calvinist believes that, but of course, that fact won’t stop you from slinging the trash.***

How do you know if someone else is saved? Know, that is, and not merely hope?

[PAR35]

members of the PCUSA consider themselves, and are generally considered to be Calvinists

Until 1967, your statement would have had an element of accuracy to it, in that some could legitimately make that claim.

In that year, however, the largest predecessor denomination stepped away from the Westminster Standards (which they had already diluted with regard to divorce and remarriage) by adopting a new, watered down Confession.

As Vatican II was used to compromise standards in the Roman church, so the Confession of 1967 was used to compromise standards in what has become the PCUSA.

I recall that in the late 1960s, being told by a PCUS pastor, when I asked about predestination, that the doctrine was once widely held, but was not generally taught in the denomination any more.

And, let's face it, without the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, there isn't much that can be called Calvinist in the church.

So, you appear to be sadly misinformed on Presbyterianism, Calvinism, and Biblical theology.

Here's hoping and praying that the current Pope can clean up the mess that JPII left behind.

[MarkBsnr]

***Observation) [Open], enat wrote:
“Whether you like it or not, members of the PCUSA consider themselves, and are generally considered to be, Calvinists”

And Dignity and Catholics for a Free Choice consider themselves Catholics. What is your point?.***

PCUSA is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States. Pro abortion Catholic groups are not denominations for one thing, and they do not represent the majority of Catholics and certainly do not represent the faith.

[andysandmikesmom]

MarkBsnr, you asked earlier in this thread a question regarding prayer...Dr. Eckleberg gave an answer...I am too tired, or maybe just plain too lazy, to try to sort through all these posts again, and find the exact question and answers...I found the question intriguing, tho I found the answer leaving me with some question, primarily about Calvinism, which I know very little about, but am seeking to understand...so here goes, anyone can answer, but I would like a Calvinist POV here...

Regarding prayer...here and there on this thread, and on many other religious threads throughout the years, I have read one poster after another, posting a testimony about how they or others prayed to God for a healing for someone, or prayed for some problem that someone was having, and then the healing came about, or the problem was resolved...

Now, if Calvinism, says, that all things are pre-determined, just what is the use of prayer?...if MR. X, gets cancer, and a specific person or a group of people pray for him, and he gets cured, wasn’t that already pre-determined beforehand, according to Calvinism, that he would get cured?....if it was predetermined that he would be cured, what good was the prayer?...or was it predetermned that he would get cured because it was predetermined that those people would pray?...and how did he get cancer in the first place...say he had lung cancer, was it predetermined that he would smoke, predetermined that he would get lung cancer, predetermined that he would get prayed for, and then predetermined that he would be cured?...in other words, is everything in our lives, down to the smallest detail, pre-determined by God to occur exactly how and when and where it did?.....perhaps I am reading Calvinism wrong, but it all seems like a long string of pre-determined acts carried out in a pre-determined scenario...I hope someone can answer me, or at least set me straight here..

I remember long ago, someone who was a Calvinist, and I dont remember who, just remember it being years ago, and remember what this Calvinist said...they said, that someone ate for breakfast, what they did, because it was predetermined that for that one day, they would make that choice...the same poster also said, that babies sin, by soiling their diapers...I just found these two statements very odd, and wondered if other Calvinists would go along with what this Calvinist once said, or if there was something just odd about this one Calvinist posters remarks..

I dont know if I have made my questions clearly known, I sure hope so, because I would like some clarification...

Thanks in advance to anyone choosing to take this on, I appreciate it, I suppose, because I dont understand this idea of pre-determination, and I would like to at least begin to figure it out...

[tiki]

Okay, then explain it to me. If God chooses some to be born elect and some not, then perforce some of your family and friends must be in the non-elect. And if the non-elect don’t go to hell then where do they go?

[LordBridey]

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Do you actually go into a closet and shut the door? And by telling us this aren't you breaking the secret?

[MarkBsnr]

***If and when you ever get around to answering that question, let me know.***

I told you that I would answer the question with a yes or no answer when you phrased it so that predestination is not assumed equivalent to foreknowledge.

God created all men. Since God is out of time, He knows all - all time occurs now to him. He did not create men to sin - that is the legacy of Adam. He did however provide a means to escape the fires of hell - His saving Grace.

Yes He knows all; no he did not predestine men to hell.

[MarkBsnr]

***will be honest here and not intentionally contentious. I have never seen a Calvinist on his knees in prayer.
I wouldn’t expect you to.

We worship according to the pattern Christ established for us...

“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. ***

I see. So nobody prays together and you don’t pray in church (no Presbyterian church I’ve seen has little closets in) during your services.

So when my Calvinist acquaintances sneak off suddenly, they’re either going for a drink or to pray? And I’ve still never seen a Calvinist kneel in prayer. Have you?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

No, I don't go into a closet, but I pray and sometimes kneel in solitude, as Christ rightly instructed us. We are not to show ourselves to be pious according to the strain on our knees or the grimace on our face. What matters is what is in the heart.

Men don't need to kneel in public for God to know their prayers. As He says, He knows what we need before we ask.