Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
“Whether you like it or not, members of the PCUSA consider themselves, and are generally considered to be, Calvinists”
And Dignity and Catholics for a Free Choice consider themselves Catholics. What is your point?.
Dr. Eckleburg; forgive me for breaking my promise, please.
Nice comparison to PCUSA.
.Are you serious?
I’ve got an idea. Ordain CLOSETED homosexuals, so many it represents a large number of your clergy, and PRETEND you don’t.
“I am certain you will chase down the “Catholics” who followed enat around”
I appreciate your covering my back here. This is really no problem. In my profession when one has to resort to questioning academic credentials one has no real defense to the argument. I consider it a compliment.
Truly? Because this is harrassment
“Nice comparison to PCUSA”
You like that? They are about on the same moral level now.
where does he belong?
No, not really.
Catholics for Free Choice promote killing of innocents. That's far worse than any thing PCUSA or Dignity could do. Murder trumps all.
Whether you like it or not, members of the PCUSA consider themselves, and are generally considered to be, Calvinists.
The PCUSA does not regard itself as a Calvinist denominiation. I was a member of the PCUSA. Very few of the Presbyterians in that denomination have even read Calvin. Sadly, by this recent vote permitting the ordination of practicing homosexuals, contrary to the will of vast numbers of members in the denomination, the PCUSA has further removed itself from much of Scripture and the theology Calvin articulated and taught.
Neither the PCA nor the OPC capitulates on the Gospel and its teachings concerning homosexuality. Such modernism was part of what caused the denomination to splinter in the first place.
But by the grace of God, the remnant survives, regardless of men's ignorance and schemes.
And by this act the membership rolls of the PCA and the OPC will undoubtedly grow.
Police have a Code of Ethics. Police lie, cheat, and steal.
Lawyers have a Code of Ethics. Lawyers lie, cheat, and steal.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach the worship of Mary. Catholics do.
Eliminate the "Catholics" who violate "Catholic Teaching" and you have a tiny minority religion.
Your "Catholic Teaching" ploy is meaningless.
“Esau thrived and that is obvious from the Bible but 2 little verses, taken out of context are used to prove that there are elect and non-elect”
David had the same problem thinking prosperity is a sign of God’s favor.
Psa 73:12 Behold, these [are] the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase [in] riches.
Psa 73:13 Verily I have cleansed my heart [in] vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
Psa 73:14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
Psa 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend [against] the generation of thy children.
Psa 73:16 When I thought to know this, it [was] too painful for me;
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; [then] understood I their end.
Dr. Eckleburg: I just got absolution from a lawyer for my church.
Following your debate technique...
No, I'm not.
***Does God know who will receive faith in Christ, and who will not, and yet does God create both those categories of men anyway?***
A step up, for sure. Keep trying, you’re almost there.
ANSWER:
Virtually ALL of it! GOD--PLEASE Have Mercy !!!
So it would seem. None are so blind, and all that...
8~)
It's almost like once they have an opinion, NOTHING is going to change that opinion, not even the truth.
LOL.
And then when they're faced with evidence of the sexual abuse of minors in their congregation, shuffle these men around to other unsuspecting parishes so they can continue their abuse with impunity.
I recognize that but just wanted to say I appreciated your concern.
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