CAUTION: The depth of love and kindness shown above may cause one to
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You're telling me that I misrepresented Calvinist doctrine? Is it possible that I, moi? stomped over some nuance or other and inappropriately and even tendentiously misused and bruised a TULIP petal?
And then you're suggesting that I did so because I didn't have an argument that would persuade somebody who believes in Sola Scriptura?
If I cared enough I'd get one of Quix's cartoons.
I too can generalize about "RC Apologists", thus: When a long train of abuses, mischaracterizations, outright falsehoods, and tendentious misstatements are endured, sooner or later it's nice to return the favor by casting a lure over toward the part of the pond where the big mouths are, and see if any will jump to the bait.
Looks like they will. Looks like some of 'em will swallow the lure!
Fisher of men human-type personnel. It ain't much, but it's a living.
Where in Scripture are we told our prayers are works?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." -- John 6:28-29"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
The Holy Spirit brings us to our knees in prayer. You're certainly entitled to think you get there all by yourself.
Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,—'These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:' we, on the contrary, prefer to say, 'these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen.' That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have tokens of an immaterial {381} principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine."Development of Christian Doctrine" by Cardinal John Henry Newman
The title of Section 2, which you omitted, is "The Assimilating Power of Sacramental Grace."
Not only are you "making it personal," but you are wrong.
Fruits matter.
Good fruits are given by God and are born of Christ on good trees planted by God to display His mercy.
Evil fruit is produced by corrupt trees, likewise planted by God to display His wrath.
Charity matters.
If we don't have charity, then the truth is not in us.
I believe I am going to heaven not by anything I have done to earn salvation, but by God graciously, freely, mercifully acquitting me of my sins by the redeeming sacrifice of His Son.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone according to God's word alone for God's glory alone.
Oh, there's that nasty sola scriptura bug biting you again.
Whatever is beyond mere faith is a work, or did Jean Cauvin come up with a spacey definition of "works" too?
My “intentions,” which have been realized, were to show the error of MarkBsnr’s and Petronski’s interpretation of the riches and blessings of Esau.
Thank you for sharing your own personal interpretation of Scripture.
All you did was lie about my statements and cast upon me what can only be described from your perspective as a curse. You've proved nothing.
No, I was going by what I thought was common knowledge- estimates are wide ranging, to be sure, from 50m to 500m... in that range, "hundreds of millions" (ie 200m or more) is not unwieldy.
In the interest of brevity, I will reply more fully to wagglebee, who has offered up a well fleshed argument down thread from the one I reply to here- I will be sure to ping you when I reply to that one...
Well, yeah. It sure enough is.
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." -- Malachi 1:2-3"...yet I loved Jacob,
I think he might be an alien or under the influence of aliens. His intention is to rot our brains while we think of annoying little animals laughing. Once enough brains are turned into a gelatinous substance, the aliens will be the ones laughing. They will take over the planet and our mushed up brains will only be able to heed their orders.
We will believe what we are told to believe or they will torture us with more visuals of laughing animals which once seemed so cute until we realized the evil they were doing but then it will be too late.
We will believe whatever they believe, even if we can’t figure out what they believe because they talk gibberish in blazing color and wondrously varietal fonts.
Either that or they will force us all to bleach our hair blond and then all will be lost.
OMG! I think I hear something landing on my roof! Wait, I’ll peek out the window. OH NO.................
I’m back, they let me go after all the images of snickering animals were removed. Now I don’t know what to believe. Did they remove them because I knew too much or to protect me from the insanity.
If you're going to go with Newman, don't leave out the good parts.4.
The principle of the distinction, by which these observances were pious in Christianity and superstitious in paganism, is implied in such passages of Tertullian, Lactantius, and others, as speak of evil spirits lurking under the pagan statues. It is intimated also by Origen, who, after saying that Scripture so strongly "forbids temples, altars, and images," that Christians are "ready to go to death, if necessary, rather than pollute their notion of the God of all by any such transgression," assigns as a reason "that, as far as possible, they might not fall into the notion that images were gods." St. Augustine, in replying to Porphyry, is more express; "Those," he says, "who are acquainted with Old and New Testament do not blame in the pagan religion the erection of temples or institution of priesthoods, but that these are done to idols and devils ... True religion blames in their superstitions, not so much their sacrificing, for the ancient saints sacrificed to the True God, as their sacrificing to false gods." [Note 12] To Faustus the Manichee he answers, "We have some things in common with the gentiles, but our purpose is different." [Note 13] And St. Jerome asks Vigilantius, who made objections to lights and oil, "Because we once worshipped idols, is that a reason why we should not worship God, for fear of seeming to address him with an honour like that which was paid to idols and then was detestable, whereas this is paid to Martyrs and therefore to be received?" [Note 14]
So, you carefully picked two verses where hatred was expressed for Esau and concluded by saying, "May you receive all that Esau received," which one would assume includes hatred?
True. Vulgate. So?
Quoting whom? Foxe? Spurgeon?
Please.
ROFL! Hmmmm.....could be......:D
So just keep in mind on what side of the Tiber that grassfire started.
Perhaps the RC bible has only two such verses, but Scripture contains many such notations as to what became of Esau and his heritage.
It appears that many RCs have very little awareness of these verses and what they mean. That might explain their myopia concerning how and why men are actually blessed by God.
The most fitting one handily available.
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