Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Too funny.
This is why you need the Magisterium; the words are there (well, some of them anyway, given the abridged Bibles that you guys have) but the understanding is not.
Esau giving away his birthright is used as a lesson to all future generations; yet just like David, he is rewarded by God finally. Rewarded, Dr. E. Genesis 36 details the length and breadth of God’s rewards to him.
***But since we know all things work together for the good of those who love Him, even these ridiculous errors are used by God to further declare His glory by the refutation of those errors and a correct preaching of His word.***
That is the purpose of the Church. If there were no heathen, heretic or apostate, we’d have no one to preach the Word to. We thank you for your opposition.
***Does God know who will receive faith in Christ, and who will not, and yet does God create both those categories of men anyway?***
The difference between preknowledge and predestination still escapes the Reformed eh? God creates all men; not all reach out for His Grace. God is not the author of sin. It is up to each man to reach out.
An entire chapter filled with God’s blessings for Esau by name.
Would that you and I could share a verse!
AMEN!
So, the Angel Gabriel LIED?
What is it about Calvinists that prevents distinguishing between foreknown and foreordained?
***An entire chapter filled with God’s blessings for Esau by name.
Would that you and I could share a verse!***
Filled is right, with generation after generation of descendants. Wealth, riches, saucy wives and uncountable descendants. Sounds like quite a curse.
I can hear the sounds of Reformed headshaking now.
The definition of "mediator" is Jesus Christ, our only Saviour, as Scripture tells us. Christ, the only propitiation for our sins. Christ, the only one who redeems the lost sheep. Christ, the only means of our salvation who reconciles our sins by taking on the punishment for them and paying for every one of them on the cross.
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." -- Hebrews 9:15
A mediator of our salvation, according to God's word, is one who "by means of death" pays for the sins of those whom God has adopted as His sons.
That is not Mary. Mary benefits from the "one mediator" as do all those who are called by God to His eternal inheritance.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" -- 1 Timothy 2:5
From this clear teaching in Scripture, the RCC strays so far and in such collusion with the devil that it has the audacity to say that a creature, Mary, is some kind of mediator between God and men.
Flee from idolatry and the fables and lies that take your mind off Christ and turn your thoughts back on to the creature.
Nowhere in scripture does it say "Esau lived out his life before God to the end of his days" or anything close to it. The scriptures say just the opposite. Esau went the way of Ishmael, the Desert of Sinai rather than the "promised land". If he was blessed or loved by God at all it had nothing to do with him but all to do with his being of Abraham's progeny, just like Ishmael. He and his progeny are always listed as antagonistic to God's promised people and though in Abraham he may be "loved" as far as salvation in the end he/they will be destroyed as was prophesied.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The only forgiveness that cleanses our sins is that given by God alone.
How do your brothers in Christ know to pray for you if you do not ask them?
I fail to see where the Catholic Church disagrees with your post.
lolol. God, please do not "reward me" like Esau.
We thank you for your opposition.
Regarding our Scriptural rebuttal to your vacuous preaching of Rome's specious interpretation of the Word, you're welcome, but it will only benefit you insofar as God will turn you from your pagan practices and refocus your mind on Christ alone.
As God wills.
Does God know who will receive faith in Christ, and who will not, and yet does God create both those categories of men anyway?
Now, wait now. What about that discussion Christ had when He said that when you bring your gifts to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, first go settle with your brother, THEN bring your gifts to God.
So it seems that Christ requires us to be at peace with our brother (and neighbors) as much as possible before attempting to offer Him something.
Makes sense to me.
***We are to pray for our brothers in Christ.***
If everything is foreordained, then what is prayer for? If God is locked into a predestined future and so are we, then prayer has no value.
John 20:
19
11 12 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
More commandments that the Reformed ignore?
Wow, what an amazing answer to prayer. God DOES care about the little things (not so little to us, perhaps). It’s important to pray about all things concerning us.
LOL. Share as much as you desire.
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." -- Romans 9:13"And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." -- Malachi 1:3
Stubborn is as stubborn does. May you receive all that Esau received.
How loving you are.
**spit**
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) FULL OF GRACE and truth." -- John 1:14
You take the glory that is God's alone and attribute it to a creature. Warmed-over paganism.
What goes around comes around. A judgement like that from a protestant to a Catholic, in personal terms “May you receive all that Esau received” is going to interfere with whatever dregs of spiritual life permit such a statement.
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