Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Excellent and very agreeable point, yet again.
Thanks.
Yeah, the Chaplain founding CREDO recognized that it would become more deadly and neutered as it endured and was made more and more official. I think that’s one reason the custom was there the first 2 years to constantly rake each other over the hot-seat coals on the 10 member staff.
Trouble is, I was always the first to volunteer and everyone else was gleeful to have a stand-in victim! LOL.
Nevertheless, I learned and grew through even that very flawed and humanized fiery furnace.
However, the ones God engineered get deeper than the bone marrow, as I suspect you know.
Yet again much Biblical wisdom easy to agree with.
Thanks much.
Yeah, I think the Jw’s have some realy stuff to answer for.
Walter Martin investigated the hierarchy sufficiently to more or less prove that the hierarchy KNEW their whole scheme was bogus and were strictly in it for the control freak and money aspects of it.
Yet, God can teach us stuff from the most awful lesson materials.
***”Formulated the way you have, presuming you are referring to the Catholic Church, there’s no need to deny it. It’s false.”****
You guys live in a fantasy world.
MadDawg, I have been following this thread from the beginning, and it is up to almost 10,000 posts...I will say this tho...your posts #9910, 9914, and #9916, are just about the three best posts on this whole lengthy thread...
Thank you so much for these posts...I for one, appreciate them, more than you can possibly know...
Just today I prayed for some extra help with an upcoming concrete pour. I and my helper have been building forms for two weeks. I’ve been wondering where I was going to come up with a couple extra good hands for the pour day. This afternoon I caught myself saying to God, “ Could you help me out here Lord?” I laughed at myself and even chided myself a bit for praying for something so inconsequential.
Four hours later the phone rang. It was my neighbor I haven’t talked to in a month offering his help along with his skilled mason that he’s had working on his place for a year or so. “I see you have your forms nearly finished. Let me know when you want to pour and we’ll be over there at first light.”
Thank you God.
Like I said, saying man had nothing to do with it is simply a denial of reality. Positive thinking has it's place, but this kind of dementia is up there with thinking one can fly like Superman.
Ahhhhhhh, supplanting the authentic Scriptures with the RC Magicsterical Mangled Alice In Wonderland School of Theology RUBBERIZED ‘PSEUDO-SCRIPTURES’ is using the authentic Bible as ‘intended?’ ROTFLOL! GUFFAWS TO THE MAX!
If you think that's funny, you should hear the one about the person who used it for a throw rug.
Incredible anti-reality strikes again. Prottys only use authentic UNRUBBERIZED solid translations of genuine New Testament Scriptures. I suspect many would be happy to lend some to any RC’s wondering what the authentic is like.
What does that have to do with the fact that Christ established and authorized the Church, not a book?
Do you even read this stuff before answering?
Holy Spirit blessed various congregations around and spreading out from the Med from Christ’s time to this.
Really? How do you know this?
Thankfully, Paul’s letters and The Gospels as well as the rest of the authentic Holy Spirit vetted New Testament was familiar to most such congregations...
This sounds like more of that "Bereans had a New Testament" nonsense I squashed with another poster last year. It's amazing how twisted a person can become when they have to answer to no one but themselves.
Thankfully, most Prottys have not been in rebellion against God nor the things of God...
"Protestant" is rebellion by definition. Jesus established a Church, lots of people left it to start their own. Simple as that.
The RC org has the least claim to such an authority of any self-proclaimed Christian org on the face of the planet.
The "RC org" is the only org with any claim to authority. All others are pretenders.
Incredible. Calling the authentic Scriptures a ‘philosophical golden calf’ has to be one of the most irrational, horrific, awful fantasies I’ve come across in decades.
Oh no, you misunderstand. The Scriptures aren't the golden calf...the five solas are.
I am up later than I ought to be. But I did go to the Vigil Mass, so I can sleep in tomorrow.
We celebrate Saints Peter and Paul. And so great was their grace that the terms of the disagreement are that we do not sufficiently appreciate or proclaim the love God has for us.
So the core message got through. God Loves us!
We should all pause for just a minute and give great thanks that we are fighting about whether or not Catholics are any good at proclaiming the Love of God. At least we're arguing about the right thing.
this kind of dementia
Thanks for the personal assault. Much appreciate the points.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Oh, wait . . . that’s impossible.
God only answers prayers through/to the Mary Caricature for delivery by the White Hanky Brigade.
And then certainly not the prayers of Prottys anyway! harumph!
/s
INDEED.
QUITE EXCELLENT.
I actually should have also included your post #9920, as that one, especially the last paragraph really got to me...
I worked for years in nursing home...I always tried to work graveyard shift, as I function much better at night, than during the day....anyway, during graveyard shift, there are fewer workers around, and everyone has more residents to care for...given the nature of nursing homes, and the age and the health of the residents, most of those residents are there, living out the last years of their lives...and given that, naturally I have been privileged to care for many of these residents during their last hours on earth...
Most of them are conscious, many are fully aware that they are dying...there is nothing more satisfying than sitting at their bedside, holding their hand, comforting them, unless or until their family or loved ones arrive(which all too many times never happens)...
And I also, have seen them die in many different ways...some are moaning in pain, some are frightened, and yet others seem quite at peace, and almost serene...each one dies in their own way, and whatever way that might be, I tried to be there, to help them, in any way I could...
All I can really do for them, is hold their hand, and when they do die, I used to feel that now my hand was no longer needed, because now they were in God’s hands...
It is difficult sometimes to be with folks as they die, and yet to me anyway, it certainly was the most worthwhile part of my job...
Anyway, thanks for your kind comments, and glad that you are up late...sometimes myself, I am up to 4am each and every nite, even, tho I am retired....somehow, I find it hard to sleep at night, and hard to stay awake during the daylight hours...I am just all twisted around...
Hmmmm... I seem to remember something about "standing on His Word..."
'Brazen serpent' ???? out of The Bible??? sounds like the RC fantasized hogwash has escalated out of this galactic neighborhood. ...We are clearly no longer dealing with reality.
Nope. Old Testament. Try it sometime.
Man had nothing to do with instituting it. It's just a fact of CREATION, OF ALL THAT IS. It's a fact of The Father's design vis a vis The Son without Whom was nothing Created.
What happened to the human scribes you wrote of earlier? Honestly, I think we're getting into butterfly net territory here.
GOD ALONE could have insured that the relationship between THE LIVING WORD CHRIST JESUS and the CONTENT of the written text was a supernatural, dynamic, living, eternal life giving reality.
As is so often pointed out by our separated brethren, if that were true, wouldn't the Scriptures contain some hint of it?
Any denial of that fact will have to confront His displeasure at some point.
Who am I to disagree with someone who has to sit back in amazement at what God has done through him?
I cry.
Not as much as I appreciate you squealing at gnats, while dishing out camels. I'm sure no one around here, including God, has figured out what "RC rep" means....
yep
In the fantasy world where I live, people have given up their irrational hatred of Catholicism and with it their almost-rabid need to lie about the Church founded by Christ.
It increasingly appears that there may be INSUFFICIENT SHARED VOCABULARY to have a meaningful exchange with some RC REPS.
Fascinating.
God have mercy on all willful blindness on all sides of all issues.
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