Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The RCC catechism. Somehow, when we excerpt from the catechism, that alone is sufficient excuse to nullify our objections to what is being taught in the catechism.
And yet, as shown in that particular example, when the entire notation from the catechism is cited, it only makes things worse for the Catholic apologist because the RCC's error is compounded by its additional assault on the Scriptures.
lol. As God wills.
Note, that only Christ is said to be 'full of Grace' in the Bible, since it is from that fullness that we receive grace (Jn.1:16)
AMEN!
Full?
I keep showing them verses that they have never read. Their proofs are a rehash of selected Pauline verse. The proofs of the WCF are extremely limited when it comes to the Gospels - if I recall properly, Paul was the heavy hitter, followed by the OT. But I keep finding Pauline verse that has never made it into their theology.
Theology of death. Death to humanity (except for the elite few) is the faith, albeit it is dressed up in a few theological bows and wrapping paper.
lol. Was it you last week who opined incorrectly that God loved Esau as well as Jacob?
Thanks, I already covered that ground.
Your smear is ugly and grotesquely overdrawn.
Actually, when you excerpt it falsely, or misrepresent it, your objections ARE null. No need to nullify them.
No such thing was shown in that particular example. The gap is not between God and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Rather, the gap is between the Catechism of the Catholic Church and YOU.
lol.
"You" singular or "you" plural. The lies about Catholics and Catholicism on the Free Republic Religion Forum can only be measured by the metric ton.
#10241 "The Calvinists have eliminated more than three quarters of Paul from their Scripture. As well as 90 percent of the Gospels. Forget James and the others. There are a few OT verses that they can dredge up."
"First, they will argue that it is not ‘all men’. Then they will argue that the sky is green. Then they will argue that nothing in the Gospels are what they mean except when they mean what Calvin said."
!
The lesson was in the giving up of the birthright and is used as a teaching tool. The difference with Job is that Job was blameless and righteous before God.
If you would borrow Genesis from someone, you could read how Esau lived out his life before God to the end of his days.
What the catechism teaches is false and a misrepresentation of God's word, as anyone who can read Scripture can plainly see.
"One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Dr. Eck’, would you please define for us the word “mediator”?
***Deus es Caritas***
Are you saying that God is a carrot?
There is a huge gap between the Jesus of love who came to save the world, and the Reformed God who has already condemned much of His Creation to death everlasting.
LOL. Thanks for one more fine example of Rome's myopia.
But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not." -- Jeremiah 49:8,10
"And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it." -- Obadiah 1: 18
"And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." -- Malachi 1:3
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." -- Romans 9:13 "Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him...
Do you guys even read the Bible?
And in your case, Mark, have you ever actually read beyond Genesis?
Even in the face of evidence from both the Old and New Testaments, you still persist in this most peculiar error.
But since we know all things work together for the good of those who love Him, even these ridiculous errors are used by God to further declare His glory by the refutation of those errors and a correct preaching of His word.
Does God know who will receive faith in Christ, and who will not, and yet does God create both those categories of men anyway?
SO what does the Bible say you get for saying somebody believes something he doesn't believe?
Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
I’m curious, do you only believe one verse from the second chapter of the First Epistle Of Saint Paul To Timothy or do you adhere to the remainder of the chapter as well?
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