The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[OLD REGGIE]

The Calvinists have eliminated more than three quarters of Paul from their Scripture. As well as 90 percent of the Gospels. Forget James and the others. There are a few OT verses that they can dredge up.

First, they will argue that it is not ‘all men’. Then they will argue that the sky is green. Then they will argue that nothing in the Gospels are what they mean except when they mean what Calvin said.

A theology of death is what I have said and what I mean. The proof is greater with every Calvinist post.

Untruths combined with undisguised hatred.

[MarkBsnr]

***Darby and Machen didn’t make the cut. Too small-time?***

I think that numbers count somewhere. In 2005, the OPC only had 7500 baptized members.

Darby? Well, what can one possibly say?

[MarkBsnr]

***I still can’t believe that you’re coming down on the side of the Calvinists on a regular basis lately.

The deluded will believe what they will.***

I know that. Why are you siding with them?

[Petronski]

And let's not forget that if the Holy Spirit is telling each person how to interpret Scripture, that there really shouldn't be any disagreement.

And yet...

[MarkBsnr]

***Untruths combined with undisguised hatred.***

Not really. I get to post verses rather frequently that they have apparently never read.

Interesting that this morning I have gotten past Websense. I’m glad that I did. That way we can continue to have these fine conversations.

[wagglebee]

I would suggest that Henry VIII and James I are possibly redundant. There really should be a place for Joseph Smith, Jr. If Darby and Machen get on the list, why not Spurgeon?

[MarkBsnr]

I was looking at the Restoration as a main branch of the Reformation. Spurgeon, Darby and Machen didn’t really invent anything; Smith did, but I’d lump him in with the rest of the Restoration since so many novel ideas came out of it.

[Petronski]

I thought Spurgeon invented bilious anti-Papist spitspeak.

[Quix]

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. Psalm 2:3-5

But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision. Psalm 59:7-9

"Since you laugh at my counsel and make a joke of my advice, How can I take you seriously? I'll turn the tables and joke about your troubles! What if the roof falls in, and your whole life goes to pieces? What if catastrophe strikes and there's nothing to show for your life but rubble and ashes? You'll need me then. You'll call for me, but don't expect an answer. No matter how hard you look, you won't find me. Proverbs 1:24-26

A right time for birth and another for death, A right time to plant and another to reap, A right time to kill and another to heal, A right time to destroy and another to construct, A right time to cry and another to laugh, A right time to lament and another to cheer, A right time to make love and another to abstain, A right time to embrace and another to part, A right time to search and another to count your losses, A right time to hold on and another to let go, A right time to rip out and another to mend, A right time to shut up and another to speak up, A right time to love and another to hate, A right time to wage war and another to make peace. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3

but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming. Psalm 37:12-14

Our mouths were filled with laughter, our tongues with songs of joy. Then it was said among the nations, "The LORD has done great things for them." Psalm 126:1-3

I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you- Proverbs 1:25-27

[OLD REGGIE]

You see, even the people at wikipedia get the distinction:

Is Wikipedia part of your Catechism?

[wagglebee]

And Darby actually angered a great many Protestants by -and this is one of his few or perhaps only correct ideas - pointing out that the antichrist would be a single individual and not an institution like the Papacy or the Church.

[wagglebee]

I thought Spurgeon invented bilious anti-Papist spitspeak.

I thought that was Calvin.

[tiki]

Now all you need to do is write a studious treatise on this, facts would be optional, you know the drill, YOPIOS.

You should put it on an internet site, send massive amounts of emails linking to it with a PS stating that if they don’t read and forward the email within 10 minutes to at least 10 of their friends they will all go to hell. Okay, you could say 7 friends in 7 minutes or even 17 friends in 17 minutes.

While you are at it, you could ask for donations to defeat the enemy.

Not that I don’t see a bit of a plausible scenario.

[Petronski]

Do you have an issue with what I posted FROM wikipedia? Some evidence that it is incorrect?

[OLD REGGIE]

I know that. Why are you siding with them?

I'd come down on your side if someone told a deliberate lie about you.

To date:

Many lies about the Calvinists.

No lies about you.

[Petronski]

Since you laugh at my counsel and make a joke of my advice, How can I take you seriously?

You have found the question. Excellent.

Your next step should be to imagine what your answer will be.

[OLD REGGIE]

Not really.

Yes, really! #10241 is full of lies.

[MarkBsnr]

Psalms 119:

21
With a curse you rebuke the proud who stray from your commands.
22
Free me from disgrace and contempt, for I observe your decrees.
23
Though princes meet and talk against me, your servant studies your laws.

40
See how I long for your precepts; in your justice give me life.
41
Let your love come to me, LORD, salvation in accord with your promise.
42
Let me answer my taunters with a word, for I trust in your word.

49
Remember your word to your servant by which you give me hope.
50
This is my comfort in affliction, your promise that gives me life.
51
Though the arrogant utterly scorn me, I do not turn from your teaching.
52
When I recite your edicts of old I am comforted, LORD.
53
Rage seizes me because of the wicked; they forsake your teaching.

59
I have examined my ways and turned my steps to your decrees.
60
I am prompt, I do not hesitate in keeping your commands.
61
Though the snares of the wicked surround me, your teaching I do not forget.

68
You are good and do what is good; teach me your laws.
69
The arrogant smear me with lies, but I observe your precepts with all my heart.
70
Their hearts are gross and fat; as for me, your teaching is my delight.
71
It was good for me to be afflicted, in order to learn your laws.

81
My soul longs for your salvation; I put my hope in your word.
82
My eyes long to see your promise. When will you comfort me?
83
I am like a wineskin shriveled by smoke, but I have not forgotten your laws.
84
How long can your servant survive? When will your edict doom my foes?
85
The arrogant have dug pits for me; defying your teaching.
86
All your commands are steadfast. Help me! I am pursued without cause.
87
They have almost ended my life on earth, but I do not forsake your precepts.

94
I am yours; save me, for I cherish your precepts.
95
The wicked hope to destroy me, but I pay heed to your decrees.

161
Princes persecute me without reason, but my heart reveres only your word.
162
I rejoice at your promise, as one who has found rich spoil.
163
Falsehood I hate and abhor; your teaching I love.
164
Seven times a day I praise you because your edicts are just.
165
Lovers of your teaching have much peace; for them there is no stumbling block.
166
I look for your salvation, LORD, and I fulfill your commands.

I am not arrogant enough to see myself as anything but a creature of Him. I do not mouth words that pertain to Him as ones that I would put on to impress others. We do not confuse ourselves with God.

[Rutles4Ever]

I think we have to be careful in understanding the idea of "dictation". The Church has stated (I forget which encyclical) that the Holy Spirit, indeed, "dictated" Sacred Scripture. But like so many other instances, the context has been narrowed down to a scenario where there the Holy Spirit is sitting in an office with His secretary, crying out "Miss Hathaway, take a dictation!". It's the same approach as assuming that after the 7th Day, God stopped creating. No, He is still creating, and the Holy Spirit is still "dictating" through the teaching of the Magisterium, as He reveals new layers of understanding in what has once and for all been revealed.

The fundamentalist idea of a "dictated" Scripture portrays the authors as mere zombies for the Holy Spirit, and not individuals of differing backgrounds, experience, and talents, who were His vessels. Difference being, the characteristics of a zombie are of no use to his master. He is a shell - a pointless prop for, in this case, the Holy Spirit, Who can do all things without our input anyway.

But the Catholic understanding of the Holy Spirit's dictation of Scripture is that He engaged every part of their being and FILLED them (inspired them) with that which would be His exact Word to be set down as the New Testament. He spoke THROUGH their talent, THROUGH their personal histories, THROUGH their ability to receive testimony and pack it into a concise recapitulation of Christ's mission. And isn't this the way in which Christ reaches all of us...THROUGH the Sacraments, THROUGH Scripture, THROUGH our rich Sacred Tradition? Didn't the Father reveal Himself THROUGH the Son? Didn't the Son become incarnate THROUGH the Blessed Virgin? Didn't the Holy Spirit reveal His inspired works THROUGH the Catholic Church?

None of this "me and a direct line to God" theology bears any resemblance to God's operative history. A lot of people think heaven will be experienced in an isolation tank, with a Beatific Vision that relates to what THEY believe it should comprise. And that's a grave error...

[Quix]

The assertions and assumptions seem to be exceedingly flawed.

I would encourage any of my readers to consult DADDY about whether those are His sentiments, or not.