FANTASIES
NEVER
CEASE
. . .
so far.
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You need to be really careful with the first chapter in Luke as it is most likely the result of the Blessed Mother either not understanding or, and this is very likely, diliberately lying about what she was told by Gabriel and Elizabeth.
But, no matter what, you need to avoid the sixth chapter of John.
DANGER!
So, the Holy Spirit “reversed” the confusion of the tongues from the Tower of Babel at the Pentecost, but then decided to confuse us even further through by giving everyone a different interpretation of Scripture?
***The Catholic Church existed from Pentecost, which was BEFORE any books of the New Testament were written.
Yeah, yeah... that’s what you keep going on about. I find it a dubious claim, and would suggest that if it is so, that any similarity was long forgotten when she snuggled up into the belly of the beast. ***
The history of the Church is open to all. I don’t know how you find Acts dubious. It describes the commissioning of the Church. Belly of the beast?
Revelation
Chapter 13
1
1 Then I saw a beast come out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads; on its horns were ten diadems, and on its heads blasphemous name (s).
2
The beast I saw was like a leopard, but it had feet like a bear’s, and its mouth was like the mouth of a lion. 2 To it the dragon gave its own power and throne, along with great authority.
3
I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed. 3 Fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast.
4
They worshiped the dragon because it gave its authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast 4 and said, “Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it?”
Seven heads? I know that many claim that it is the Catholic Church, but could it be the seven main branches of the Reformation with the 10 horns being the 10 main Reformers?
***We understand what the Word is and we do not deify it.
Neither do we. ***
Some of the children of the Reformation do. I’ve experienced them even here.
***Walking away from the Church of Christ with Martin Luther does not bode well for one’s soul.
History would prove otherwise.***
Would it? How so?
Now you're on to something there!
I'll raise you even further. The Holy Spirit could simply inscribe it on every man's heart like the Natural Law, and there would be no need for a physical book whatsoever.
Ah! There's the rub! The Holy Spirit did what?? Made use of our material, temporal existence to convey the eternal, spiritual truth? How can that be? There can be no "mediators" but Jesus, yet, here's this pen and ink and parchment and the Holy Spirit "dictating" Sacred Scripture THROUGH those He chose to be His human instruments.
So, technically the Spirit DID dictate Scripture word-for-word, but His method was not to simply lay it down in our hearts for our own personal interpretation. He used not only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also the eyewitnesses who conveyed the facts of what they saw! In fact, He chose to convey the Gospel from four very different perspectives/audiences - all conveying one in the same Truth. Thus, the Gospel was accessible to the Jews (Matthew) and the Gentiles (Luke), and bearing the Petrine witness (Mark), as well as the Marian (John). Now, no one can argue that John's Gospel isn't the most sublime and deeply penetrating into the contemplation of salvation. But that makes total sense, since he was living with Jesus' Mother, who was full of grace...
But what's really amusing about all of this, is that fundamentalists will rail against the inability to materially prove transubstantiation, while at the same time upholding the equally unprovable belief that Sacred Scripture bears the infallible imprint of an non-corporeal Being. They will send Catholics to the stake because of one mystery, while going to the stake, themselves, for another which is equally a matter of faith.
Thank you for again proving my point so forcefully.
7 heads:
Lutherans
Anglicans
Anabaptists
Calvinists
Baptists
Congregationalists
Restorationists
10 horns:
Henry Tudor
Luther
Calvin
Zwingli
Munzer
James 1
John Knox
John Smyth
John Wesley
Rob Brown
A fine crew on the good ship Reformation.
Now you're on to something there!
That would make a GREAT thread!
Darby and Machen didn’t make the cut. Too small-time?
I guess Darby is on the bubble and Machen will have to settle for the NIT.
And which portion of your theology does this represent?
***He used not only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also the eyewitnesses who conveyed the facts of what they saw! In fact, He chose to convey the Gospel from four very different perspectives/audiences - all conveying one in the same Truth. Thus, the Gospel was accessible to the Jews (Matthew) and the Gentiles (Luke), and bearing the Petrine witness (Mark), as well as the Marian (John). Now, no one can argue that John’s Gospel isn’t the most sublime and deeply penetrating into the contemplation of salvation. But that makes total sense, since he was living with Jesus’ Mother, who was full of grace...***
Very insightful. This makes a lot of sense.
***But what’s really amusing about all of this, is that fundamentalists will rail against the inability to materially prove transubstantiation, while at the same time upholding the equally unprovable belief that Sacred Scripture bears the infallible imprint of an non-corporeal Being. ***
That’s the beauty of Gnosticism. You KNOW that you are right and that everyone else is wrong. No proof required. Just the limo ride.
Notice, too, the opening line of Luke:
1
Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us,
2
just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us,
Many have undertaken. There were a bunch of Gospels written. It took the Church to decide which contained the closest to the Gospel that Jesus wants us to know.
” Ah! There’s the rub! The Holy Spirit did what?? Made use of our material, temporal existence to convey the eternal, spiritual truth? How can that be? There can be no “mediators” but Jesus, yet, here’s this pen and ink and parchment and the Holy Spirit “dictating” Sacred Scripture THROUGH those He chose to be His human instruments. “
This is a very insightful paragraph and really boils down the argument. I doubt if it will be understood by those who already have their minds made up.
And had the Holy Spirit simply "dictated" the Gospel to one of the Apostles, there would only need to be ONE.
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