Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Idolatry is so perfidious. It sneaks in so easily we don't even realize we are falling into it. For example, the pursuit of money above all else. At first the person is admired because they are hardworking and disciplined. It is only later that the evil appears in the abuse of others to have more money. The neglect of family. The lack of morality in general and in business dealings. It is only in the last stages that the observer can look and say "you worship money and look at what it has done to you and those around you".
The worship and idolatry of Mary is no different. At first the individual is looked at as a sincere faithful Christian, consumed to be close to he LORD. It is only later that we see how this leads the individual away from the LORD.
Brother, I know you get grief for saying those that don't believe The Gospel are condemned but that's what Scripture says and God Bless you for it.
Luke DECIDED after INVESTIGATING to write things down. The fantasy of Biblical transcription of God is refuted in the Bible.
Let's go even a step further. Had God decided to "trancribe" the Gospel, simple logic would dictate that there would only be ONE and it would have contained everything without any ambiguity.
***I know you get grief for saying those that don’t believe The Gospel are condemned but that’s what Scripture says ***
The grief comes when only portions of misunderstood Gospel or the Epistles are proclaimed.
Example: call no man father.
Example: the fantasy of scriptural transcription.
It's not saying that which is the problem, it's saying that (a) to the wrong people or (b) about the wrong interpretation of the Gospel that makes it so offensive, self-righteous and self-aggrandizingly evil.
Did you know that “the Gospel” is actually four verses from Corinthians and part of one verse from Mark?
That’s the whole thing.
Or so I’ve been told.
Truth is not hate. Goebbels learned from the Catholic Church, the inventors of propaganda.
Well duh!
Of course they had to keep a fragment of a single verse from Mark, otherwise they wouldn't know what to do with the rattlesnakes.
Plenty of hate. Your posts are sopping with it.
Truth is not hate.
Your comparisons of Catholicism and Nazism ar enot truth.
Goebbels learned from the Catholic Church, the inventors of propaganda.
Grotesque distortions repeated often seem to be what the anti-Catholic bigots have learned from Goebbels.
I suspect you will keep repeating them.
During the Inquisition, the Catholic Church killed everyone in the world, donchaknow.
When that one starts plastering most of your posts with the cartoons, you know you’re succeeding.
Kind of like how that nutjob in Congress talks about how sharks still swim the "slave routes" (never mind that it's actually the gulf stream) because they "remember" the hundreds of millions of slaves thrown overboard more than two centuries ago.
***Let’s go even a step further. Had God decided to “trancribe” the Gospel, simple logic would dictate that there would only be ONE and it would have contained everything without any ambiguity.***
Not bad. Why not go a step further and say that the indwelling Holy Spirit furnishes a complete Scriptural copy to each and every person so that it is in their own language and underwstanding.
***Did you know that “the Gospel” is actually four verses from Corinthians and part of one verse from Mark?
That’s the whole thing.
Or so I’ve been told.***
I’ve been told that all I need is Luke and Acts (except the parts that don’t agree with the Reformation).
EtymologyIt is the secular world that took a word meaning spreading the faith and turned it into lying about politics.The word originates from the Latin name Congregatio de Propaganda Fide ("Congregation for the Spreading of the Faith") of a congregation founded by Pope Gregory XV in 1622. This department of the pontifical administration was charged with the spread of Catholicism and with the regulation of ecclesiastical affairs in mission territory.
The Latin adjective propaganda, which is a form of the gerundive of the verb propago (from pro- "forth" + *pag-, root of pangere "to fasten"), means "that which is to be spread" and does not carry a connotation of information, misleading or otherwise. The modern sense dates from World War I, when the term evolved to be mainly associated with politics.
***During the Inquisition, the Catholic Church killed everyone in the world, donchaknow.***
Some of them two or three times (in order to match up to the numbers).
And let's not forget that if the Holy Spirit is telling each person how to interpret Scripture, that there really shouldn't be any disagreement.
Cartoon theology, cartoon posts. It fits.
Well, the once who were killed thrice over REALLY deserved it.
But then again it makes sense since it was protestants in Germany who elected Adolph Hitler.
It cannot be denied that the German Protestants were, to a very great extent, responsible for the election and rise to power of Hitler. Shame on them.
It cannot also be denied that the Concordat with Hitler, negotiated by future Pope Pius XII, effectively abolished the Catholic Central Party, a true political party which stood in Hitler's way. This Concordat was intended to protect Catholic interests within Germany and was a cold calculated political move by the Catholic Church. Shame on them.
The Christian Churches within Germany did not cover themselves with glory.
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