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LDS Leaders Define Their Concept of JESUS CHRIST [OPEN]
UTLM ^ | Sandra Tanner

Posted on 05/28/2008 10:23:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe

LDS Leaders Define Their Concept of
JESUS CHRIST

By Sandra Tanner

 

Often Mormons will say that they believe in the same Jesus as standard Christianity. However, their leaders’ definition is very different. The current president of the Mormon Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, made a very telling comment about Jesus Christ in a talk in Geneva, Switzerland, June 6, 1998. The Deseret News reported:

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

Mormonism teaches that somewhere in eternity past God and his wife first existed as mortals on a different earth, overseen by their Heavenly Father and Mother.

This mortal couple died, received resurrected bodies, and eventually achieved godhood. They then procreated the millions of spirit children that would be sent to this earth as mortals. Thus God is part of an eternal chain of gods procreating spirit children for different worlds. Joseph Smith preached:

God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

The Mormon Church teaches that men, gods, angels and devils are all the same species. Thus both Jesus and Lucifer are literally our elder brothers. As men are viewed as being the same species as God and Jesus they have the same potential to achieve godhood. Brigham Young preached:

We have a Father; He is in heaven; ...He says that we are His children. ... we actually believe that God the Father is our heavenly Father, that we are His children; and we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother—that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, pp. 235-256, February 20, 1870)

On another occasion Brigham Young declared:

He [Jehovah] was the Son of our Heavenly Father, as we are the sons of our earthly fathers. God is the Father of our spirits, which are clothed upon by fleshly bodies, begotten for us by our earthly fathers. Jesus is our elder brother spirit clothed upon with an earthly body begotten by the Father of our spirits. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 2, September 28, 1862)

Past LDS Pres. Joseph F. Smith wrote:

Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors .... There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the elder brother of the rest of humankind.... Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of

an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness. (Improvement Era, vol. 19, pp. 941-942, June 30, 1916)

On February 8, 1857 Brigham Young explained how God came to be God and fathered Jesus:

Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create—to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book.

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit [Mary] with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp. 217-218)

Apostle George Q. Cannon preached that Christ, Satan and all the mortals born on this earth are actually brothers and sisters from a pre-earth life:

We are here to be tested and tried. There is a war between Satan and God. We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. We are the children of God. God begot us in the spirit in the eternal worlds. This fight that I speak of arose, as we are told, over the question as to how man should work out his earthly probation in a tabernacle of flesh and bones and obtain redemption. Satan differed from God, and he rebelled. We are told in the scriptures that he drew after him one third of the family of God. They thought his plan better than that of the Savior Jesus Christ. From that time until the present he has been struggling to destroy the plans of Jehovah, and to seduce the children of men—his brothers and sisters—from their allegiance to God. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23,)

 

JESUS ACHIEVED GODHOOD

Speaking in 1949, LDS leader Milton R. Hunter, of the First Council of the Seventy, stated:

You and I were sons and daughters of our Eternal Parents in the spirit world. In fact, all the people in this world were of that family, and Jesus Christ was the Firstborn.

During his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood. At that time he was foreordained to be the Savior of this world. Father Abraham was privileged to see in vision the grand council in heaven that was held prior to the peopling of this earth, and he saw, as the Lord showed him, "many of the noble and great ones." (LDS Conference Report, October 1949, p. 69)

Apostle James E. Talmage taught:

Through the sure word of revealed truth we learn of the actual relationship between God and man, and that this is the literal relationship of parent to child. The spirits of men are the offspring of Deity, born in the antemortal world and endowed with the Divine birthright of eternal development and progression, in which course of advancement the life on earth is but a stage. ... To become perfect as God is perfect is to attain the state, power, dignity, and authority of godship. Plainly there is a way provided by which the child of God may follow the footsteps of the Father, and in time—sometime in the distant eternities—be as that Divine Father is. Even as Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, endured the experiences of mortality, passed the portals of death and became a resurrected Being, so the Father before Him had trodden the same path of progression from manhood to Godhood, and today sits enthroned in the heavens

by right of achievement. He is the Eternal Father and with Him, crowned with glory and majesty, is the eternal Mother. They twain are the parents of the spirit-children for whose schooling in the lessons of mortality this earth was framed. ... Eternal exaltation is the assured attainment of those who obey in its fulness the whole law of the Gospel of Christ; theirs it is to become like unto their Celestial Parents.

"Then shall they be Gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be Gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (Doctrine and Covenants

132:20). (The Essential James E. Talmage, edited by James P. Harris, pp. 132-133)

 

LITERAL SON OF GOD

While Mormon leaders assert that they believe in the virgin birth they have changed the definition. The LDS Church teaches that God the Father has a physical, tangible, resurrected body and that God literally sired Jesus in the same physical sense that any other man begets a child. Consequently "the virgin birth" is redefined to mean Mary had intercourse with a god, not a mortal, in order to literally conceive the baby Jesus. In a 1916 doctrinal statement by the LDS First Presidency we read:

1. "Father" as Literal Parent ... God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. ... Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, pp. 1670-1671)

In a Christmas message to the general membership, the LDS First Presidency wrote:

A CHRISTMAS GREETING
FROM THE FIRST PRESIDENCY

The Latter-day Saints unite with the people of every creed and tongue and race in the general commemoration of the day observed throughout Christendom as the anniversary of the God-Man's earthly birth. ... We bow to Him as the veritable Son of the living God in the fullest sense of the hallowed term. As Mary was His saintly mother, so the Mighty God was His everlasting and literal Father. He was "the only begotten" of Deity, in the flesh, to die that man may live. This we once more affirm and declare as a glorious truth and a fundamental of "Mormon" faith. (Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp. 318-319)

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explained:

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)

Apostle McConkie explained that there was nothing figurative about Mary’s conception:

And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. ... There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. (The Promised Messiah, pp. 468-469)

In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, under the heading JESUS CHRIST we read:

He was able to accomplish his unique ministry—a ministry of reconciliation and salvation—because of who and what he was. President Ezra Taft Benson stated, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!" ... From Mary, a mortal woman, Jesus inherited mortality, including the capacity to die. From his exalted Father he inherited immortality, the capacity to live forever. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, pp.724-725)

On another page of the same volume we read: The fact of Jesus’ being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the ATONEMENT,...

For Latter-day Saints, the paternity of Jesus is not obscure. He was the literal, biological son of an immortal, tangible Father and Mary, a mortal woman (see Virgin Birth). Jesus is the only person born who deserves the title "the Only Begotten Son of God" ... He was not the son of the Holy Ghost; it was only through the Holy Ghost that the power of the Highest overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35; 1 Ne. 11:19). (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 729)

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

Throughout the scriptures he is spoken of as the Son of God. The story of his birth is plain and free from mystery, insofar as the fact is made that he is in very deed the Son of God. We are emphatically informed that he was begotten by the Father. He recognized God as his Father. He referred to himself as being the Son of God. This is not a mystery. ... It is true of Jesus Christ, as it is of any other son, he was begotten in the image of his Father and in his case his Father is the Eternal God, and the scriptures inform us that Jesus was the express image of his Father. (The Restoration of All Things, p. 61)

Apostle McConkie declared that Jesus was begotten in the normal way:

And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father—in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement. (The Promised Messiah, Bruce McConkie, pp. 472-473)

Apostle James E. Talmage wrote:

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the "Son of the Highest." In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and Spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman. (Jesus the Christ, James E. Talmage, p. 81)

 

Jesus According to the Bible

The Bible declares that Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator.

John 1:1-4, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: lds; mormonism
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To: Jess Kitting
Just for fun, let's address your misdirection post:

As I understand it, Jesus became a man. Jesus IS God, as shown in John 1 and following. God, the God Who Created all things through The Son and For The Son became a man inside the created universe. I realize that is a hard truth to accept for a mormon who believes Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers, but there it is, and it stands as the first leg of your mischaracterization we have now removed from your support. The God of Creation is not so inferior that He would be a spirit brother to Satan, a created being in the spirit realm. Your confusion is orchestrated, as we see with the following obfuscations from your post.

He was born, lived, suffered pain, and died. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by union of a sperm and a Mary egg. Do you actually deny that God feels the suffering of His people? Do you actually want to deny that God has dominion to come and go in His creation as He sees fit? That is precisely what you are trying to assert in this oblique manner of yours, your mormon methodology.

Immortal Gods don't die. Mortal men do. Is Jesus alive right now and forever more? God as the man Jesus DID die, He died in your place! Do you really have so little comprehension of what Salvation in Christ is that you would assert God in Christ did not die for you and for me? ... We are cutting the struts from under your demonic throne, one by one.

If Christ was never a mortal (man), then the whole birth, life, crucifixion, death story is a hoax. (Was He just "pretending" to die, or did He really die?) If He did not die and rise again then mormonism has nothing upon which to base their heretical claims. Do you really want to go there, in service to the father of lies? The Gospel of the Grace of God in Christ IS the conception, birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus The Christ. Do you wish to deny that? You must not be even a mormon to make such a blasphemous ploy at denying the Deity of Christ.

If Christ was at some point a (mortal) man, then He had to become (change [back] into) God (again). Now that is quite revealing of an agenda ... you would like to hide the fact that you are trying to deny Jesus IS God by insinuating that He, God, could not become a man inside His creation!

When indeed did Christ make the transformation from mortal to immortal (man to God)? You must assume that which you have tried to prove in order to pose that question! God in Christ is the second phase of His manifesting Himself in spacetime, for He was with God and was God before the universe was even created, as taught in John 1. You ask for an answer to a question for which you have assumed a flawed premise … God is able to be God, be a man--Jesus Christ--and remain God. Does the universe stop existing when a new star is formed? Did the universe of our spacetime have a beginning? Whom was before the universe began to exist? If you do not believe in God or that He created all things through Christ, then we can now ignore any further queries from the peanut gallery. Are you a Mormon ... or just an agitprop?

81 posted on 05/29/2008 7:39:25 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: colorcountry
With all due respect to the RM, it seems to me that Sevenbak owes the Tanners and those of us who have found thier work to be honest and well researched an apology. I take it very personally.

The pro LDS folks here remind me of the way a democrat reacts when they hear the name Larry Klayman of Judicial Watch. The Tanners provide accurate, but inconvenient facts which work against those who have tried to keep the whole story (in the church leaders own words) from the public.

Christ didn't lie to us, or cover up the truth to hide indescretions, and there is nothing in his conduct for any of us, Christian or LDS to be ashamed of. As we have seen with the FLDS story, that is not the case with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

82 posted on 05/29/2008 7:40:00 AM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
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To: whatisthetruth

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"

-    Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."

-    Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

-    Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness."

-    Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 73

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

-    Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

-    Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171



83 posted on 05/29/2008 7:42:31 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Protected species legislation enacted May 2008.)
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To: wintertime
I am convinced that Mormon attackers insinuate that Mormons do not believe that Mary was a virgin as a means to be deliberately shocking, and in a deliberate, premeditated, and malicious attempt to discredit Mormons.

No, attackers of Mormon doctrine do not insinuate that Mary was not a virgin. They attack the belief that God had physical sex with Mary.

84 posted on 05/29/2008 7:52:47 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: wintertime
"I am convinced that Mormon attackers insinuate that Mormons do not believe that Mary was a virgin as a means to be deliberately shocking, and in a deliberate, premeditated, and malicious attempt to discredit Mormons."

Brigham Young once stated: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., said: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). The late President Joseph Fielding Smith declared: "Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.18).

"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).
"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (p.742).

This is another example of folks getting personal, accusing us of "maliciousness", and ignoring the facts. Above are sourced quotes of the LDS prophets. These things seem shocking only because of the widespread success of the LDS spin machine.

85 posted on 05/29/2008 7:55:13 AM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
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To: SeaHawkFan; SENTINEL; sevenbak
They attack the belief that God had physical sex with Mary.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SeaHawkFan and SENTINEL,

It seems plain to me ( post #10) that Mormon leaders do **NOT** teach that God had physical sex with Mary.

86 posted on 05/29/2008 8:05:36 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: wintertime
It seems plain to me ( post #10) that Mormon leaders do **NOT** teach that God had physical sex with Mary.

Mormon's don't "teach" a lot of things that are part of their religion. Wouldn't help recruting if they actually told the truth about some of their beliefs.

87 posted on 05/29/2008 8:13:14 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: wintertime

Post #10 sets up the fallacy of the undistributed middle. The Bible clearly states that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, yet the leadership of early mormonism asserted the exact opposite. The later leadership has tried to make apologetics for that blasphemy, but don’t be taken in by the fallacy of the undistributed middle.


88 posted on 05/29/2008 8:13:25 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: wintertime
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, "was carried away in the Spirit"(1 Ne. 11:13-21), was "overshadowed" by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place "by the power of the Holy Ghost" resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.822, emphasis added)-From post #10

Above in my previous post are sourced quotes from the founders of the church and others. They all claim to have direct revelation from God himself. Now if God is the same now, past, and forever, there is only one explanation, a lot of folks are lying, and God isn't one of them.

Two current LDS teachings (I know I was in the bishopric within the last couple of years) are 1-Follow the LIVING prophet. (don't worry about what the others said in other words) and 2-When the Prophet speaks, the thinking has been done. (Don't research or question our "divine revelation")

The LDS church you think you know is NOT the LDS church.

89 posted on 05/29/2008 8:16:12 AM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
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To: SENTINEL
On occasion I have wondered if the confusion in mormonism regarding the virgin birth (and thus the virgin conception) stems from the early mormon church defining conception as union of sperm and egg, when the definition of conception was when ‘she conceives’, in other words, conception is when the newly created individual life implants in the uterine lining. By maintaining the confusion, mormons can believe that the sperm of one Joseph Smith (for instance, or perhaps more potently the sperm of a Bringham Young) is on a glorious par with the sperm of the God who was once a man in some planet existence way back yonder in time/eternity. But i freely admit, the confusions in mormonism are nearly impenetrable ... probably by design.
90 posted on 05/29/2008 8:24:19 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
I think the best insight into the mindset of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young comes from the actions of Warren Jeffs. His fench kissing of 12 year olds, etc.

The FLDS are much less ashamed of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young than the LDS, and adhere strictly to the early prophets teachings.

The LDS church has swayed with the winds of political expediency to the point that it absolutely contradicts some of the early teachings of it's founders. The problem is, they cannot on the one hand say the Book of Mormon is the word of God, but most of the other teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were not, so they lie and hide and obfuscate.

In an interesting side bar, feminists (that's right) are taking over the church at a rampant pace. I truly believe the church will offer the "Priesthood" in some manner to women within a decade.

91 posted on 05/29/2008 8:37:51 AM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
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To: whatisthetruth

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person’s eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others’ faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.


92 posted on 05/29/2008 9:00:45 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: MHGinTN
Hi MHG,

Why the harsh tone?

From your response, it appears that you agree with each of the points I made, yet you have ill will toward me, whom you have never met.

Let's go back over these, this time without the digressions and name-calling.

1. Jesus became a man.
Your response: For The Son became a man inside the created universe.
We agree on this point.

2. He was born, lived, suffered pain, and died.
You agree with this too, despite your trying to bring in irrelevant attacks from out of nowhere.

Do you actually want to deny that God has dominion to come and go in His creation as He sees fit?

No. Do you? The idea that God is some kind of changeling or "shapeshifter" like we see on Star Trek is interesting, and I don't fault you for believing that. You may believe as you wish.

3. Immortal Gods don't die. Mortal men do.

Your response: Is Jesus alive right now and forever more? God as the man Jesus DID die.

Do you agree with Nietsche? Was God dead for a period of time? Or is He immortal? Maybe you want it both ways. You are beginning to sound like a Mormon here.

He died in your place! Do you really have so little comprehension of what Salvation in Christ is that you would assert God in Christ did not die for you and for me

I understand the essence of Christianity. It is a beautiful concept, and I appreciate what Christ has done for me, you, and all others. I never said I didn't believe this. I wanted to point out the logical contradictions with Christ having both mortal and immortal characteristics. How do you reconcile the these contradictions in your mind?

4. If Christ was at some point a (mortal) man, then He had to become (change [back] into) God (again).

Your response: you are trying to deny Jesus IS God by insinuating that He, God, could not become a man inside His creation!

See point #2 above. God is God. If he wants to appear as a man, that is His prerogrative. I don't place limits on Him. Do you?

5. When indeed did Christ make the transformation from mortal to immortal (man to God)?

Your response God in Christ is the second phase of His manifesting Himself in spacetime.

We agree on this point too. God is capable of manifesting himself as a human being. My question is not whether He can do this, but when did/does/will it happen?

So we're back to the original question, posed by P-Marlowe: Was Jesus Christ God from all eternity, or did he become a God at some point in time?

What is your answer? Did Jesus become a man and then a God again?

93 posted on 05/29/2008 9:15:48 AM PDT by Jess Kitting
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To: whatisthetruth

How do “please keep off the grass” signs get there?


94 posted on 05/29/2008 9:22:15 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: whatisthetruth

If there’s an exception to every rule, is there an exception to that rule?


95 posted on 05/29/2008 9:24:50 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: P-Marlowe
Why is it that Mormons invariably refuse to answer this question?

Maybe they are still hungup on the Presby/Untruth one!

96 posted on 05/29/2008 9:44:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: P-Marlowe
Joseph Smith preached:

God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

 

 

Exodus 3:13-16
 13.  Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
 14.  God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.  This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'"
 15.  God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, `The LORD, the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
 

97 posted on 05/29/2008 9:49:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: wintertime
It seems plain to me ( post #10) that Mormon leaders do **NOT** teach that God had physical sex with Mary.

The LDS certainly used to teach it openly.

It is one, of the many, LDS doctrines that they would like to "sweep under the rug" and have the gentile world forget about.

But...here, in part, it is:

Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet of the Mormon Church: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)

"Christ was begotten of God. He was NOT born without the aid of man and that man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)

The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood- was begotten of his Father, as we are of our fathers. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 8:115)

In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of discourses, 8:211)

'What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)

'Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject when I replied to this idea- "If the son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties."...But what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know but this subject? Comparatively Nothing." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)

Bruce R. McConkie, deceased member of the 12 Apostles (d.1985) and leading LDS theologian, writes in Mormon Doctrine:

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.—page 742

And there you have it...straight from the LDS! Their god, who used to be Adam, had sex with Mary to conceive their jesus.

I think that they may also teach that their god now lives on, or near, planet Kolob with many wives and many more children.

98 posted on 05/29/2008 9:50:30 AM PDT by pby
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To: sevenbak
LDS leaders? Who knew the Tanners, long time anti Mormons, were LDS leaders.

Who knew; that some on this thread are unable to read and comprehend plain English?

99 posted on 05/29/2008 9:51:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: sevenbak
 
More actual leaders Teachers, not quote mined by the Tanners Sevenbak.

 
 

Professor Robert Millet teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/
 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

100 posted on 05/29/2008 9:53:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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