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The Great Heresies [Open]
Catholic.com ^

Posted on 05/20/2008 7:45:05 AM PDT by NYer

From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.

The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

  What Is Heresy?

Heresy is an emotionally loaded term that is often misused. It is not the same thing as incredulity, schism, apostasy, or other sins against faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (CCC 2089).

To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. This means that movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity, but that do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism), are not heresies, but separate religions. Examples include Muslims, who do not practice baptism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not practice valid baptism.

Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the pope’s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

It is important to distinguish heresy from schism and apostasy. In schism, one separates from the Catholic Church without repudiating a defined doctrine. An example of a contemporary schism is the Society of St. Pius X—the "Lefebvrists" or followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre—who separated from the Church in the late 1980s, but who have not denied Catholic doctrines. In apostasy, one totally repudiates the Christian faith and no longer even claims to be a Christian.

With this in mind, let’s look at some of the major heresies of Church history and when they began.

 

The Circumcisers (1st Century)

The Circumcision heresy may be summed up in the words of Acts 15:1: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’"

Many of the early Christians were Jews, who brought to the Christian faith many of their former practices. They recognized in Jesus the Messiah predicted by the prophets and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Because circumcision had been required in the Old Testament for membership in God’s covenant, many thought it would also be required for membership in the New Covenant that Christ had come to inaugurate. They believed one must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law to come to Christ. In other words, one had to become a Jew to become a Christian.

But God made it clear to Peter in Acts 10 that Gentiles are acceptable to God and may be baptized and become Christians without circumcision. The same teaching was vigorously defended by Paul in his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians—to areas where the Circumcision heresy had spread.

 

Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)

"Matter is evil!" was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 ("And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good") and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation. If matter is evil, then Jesus Christ could not be true God and true man, for Christ is in no way evil. Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion. Some Gnostics, recognizing that the Old Testament taught that God created matter, claimed that the God of the Jews was an evil deity who was distinct from the New Testament God of Jesus Christ. They also proposed belief in many divine beings, known as "aeons," who mediated between man and the ultimate, unreachable God. The lowest of these aeons, the one who had contact with men, was supposed to be Jesus Christ.

 

Montanism (Late 2nd Century)

Montanus began his career innocently enough through preaching a return to penance and fervor. His movement also emphasized the continuance of miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophecy. However, he also claimed that his teachings were above those of the Church, and soon he began to teach Christ’s imminent return in his home town in Phrygia. There were also statements that Montanus himself either was, or at least specially spoke for, the Paraclete that Jesus had promised would come (in reality, the Holy Spirit).

 

Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)

The Sabellianists taught that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not distinct persons, but two aspects or offices of one person. According to them, the three persons of the Trinity exist only in God’s relation to man, not in objective reality.

 

Arianism (4th Century)

Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.

Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.

 

Pelagianism (5th Century)

Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.

 

Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)

After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.

 

Nestorianism (5th Century)

This heresy about the person of Christ was initiated by Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: "God-bearer" or, less literally, "Mother of God"). Nestorius claimed that she only bore Christ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos ("Christ-bearer" or "Mother of Christ").

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Nestorius’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate ("in the flesh").

There is some doubt whether Nestorius himself held the heresy his statements imply, and in this century, the Assyrian Church of the East, historically regarded as a Nestorian church, has signed a fully orthodox joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and rejects Nestorianism. It is now in the process of coming into full ecclesial communion with the Catholic Church.

 

Monophysitism (5th Century)

Monophysitism originated as a reaction to Nestorianism. The Monophysites (led by a man named Eutyches) were horrified by Nestorius’s implication that Christ was two people with two different natures (human and divine). They went to the other extreme, claiming that Christ was one person with only one nature (a fusion of human and divine elements). They are thus known as Monophysites because of their claim that Christ had only one nature (Greek: mono = one; physis = nature).

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Monophysitism was as bad as Nestorianism because it denied Christ’s full humanity and full divinity. If Christ did not have a fully human nature, then he would not be fully human, and if he did not have a fully divine nature then he was not fully divine.

 

Iconoclasm (7th and 8th Centuries)

This heresy arose when a group of people known as iconoclasts (literally, "icon smashers") appeared, who claimed that it was sinful to make pictures and statues of Christ and the saints, despite the fact that in the Bible, God had commanded the making of religious statues (Ex. 25:18–20; 1 Chr. 28:18–19), including symbolic representations of Christ (cf. Num. 21:8–9 with John 3:14).

 

Catharism (11th Century)

Catharism was a complicated mix of non-Christian religions reworked with Christian terminology. The Cathars had many different sects; they had in common a teaching that the world was created by an evil deity (so matter was evil) and we must worship the good deity instead.

The Albigensians formed one of the largest Cathar sects. They taught that the spirit was created by God, and was good, while the body was created by an evil god, and the spirit must be freed from the body. Having children was one of the greatest evils, since it entailed imprisoning another "spirit" in flesh. Logically, marriage was forbidden, though fornication was permitted. Tremendous fasts and severe mortifications of all kinds were practiced, and their leaders went about in voluntary poverty.

 

Protestantism (16th Century)

Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone"—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide ("by faith alone"— the idea that we are justified by faith only).

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation." A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church "against" the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant.

 

Jansenism (17th Century)

Jansenius, bishop of Ypres, France, initiated this heresy with a paper he wrote on Augustine, which redefined the doctrine of grace. Among other doctrines, his followers denied that Christ died for all men, but claimed that he died only for those who will be finally saved (the elect). This and other Jansenist errors were officially condemned by Pope Innocent X in 1653.

Heresies have been with us from the Church’s beginning. They even have been started by Church leaders, who were then corrected by councils and popes. Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church, for he told Peter, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is truly, in Paul’s words, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: heresy; history
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To: OLD REGGIE

***You used a lot of verbiage just to say you have no idea what languages Peter understood. A simple “no” or “I don’t know” would do.***

Scripture doesn’t speak a lot towards the bathroom habits of the people then, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t indulge themselves. Same as language. I don’t need explicit instruction as to the language of a poor fisherman in Galilee. By the same token, I would expect a poor fisherman in Zanzibar to speak Swahili, not Mandarin Chinese.

***This is a slap at who? Name names and give examples to prove you understand what the Reformed believe. Otherwise admit you just threw that out as filler.***

Me? Filler? Nonsense. The Reformed believe that only they have the understanding of the Word of God. Jean Cauvin is a good start. The WCF is another; just make sure that you wear thick rubber gloves, you keep it off the carpet (it stains) and that you wash with a good antiseptic soap.


941 posted on 05/24/2008 12:34:28 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***And BTW ignore the words of Jesus when they are not in keeping with your practice of emphasis on flesh.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ***

I’ll assume that you have a point here. We do as we are instructed.


942 posted on 05/24/2008 12:46:53 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: wmfights

But I’ve seen it insisted here that Jesus is the only Rock.

Why would you stand on Jesus? Aren’t you crushing Him?


943 posted on 05/24/2008 12:47:12 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

Don’t you believe that Christ is strong enough to support, hold up, encourage, save, keep, hold onto all that come to Him? Whether you realize it or not, the implication of your statement diminishes the Son of the Living God...As if He needed a Church, or anything else! The Church is not Christ’s equal. No one, nothing is. His is the preeminence.


944 posted on 05/24/2008 1:00:02 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Petronski

***If one considers a steaming bowl of false witness “great,” sure...it was great.***

Not so much a bowl as an open pit in in the ground. Their father of lies has led them well and blinded their eyes to the point where I’m surprised that their churches don’t fly the pentacle.

Oh wait. http://www.institutefordemocracy.org/warfare.html says that:

The mainstream Presbyterian Church (USA) is infested with demons, according to a small but increasingly potent network of activists operating within the 2.6 million-member denomination. This group sees itself as engaged in a campaign of “spiritual warfare” against the enemies of God. While the Presbyterian Church might seem an unlikely place to find enemies of God, these spiritual warriors believe that the entire official Women’s Ministries division has been captured by Satan and built into a “demonic stronghold” that is threatening to usurp the church.

Practitioners of spiritual warfare believe that Satan and his agents are blocking the spread of the Gospel, and utilize prayer to attack perceived demonic presences. This type of prayer targets specific groups, individuals, or policies of the church—and ultimately its internal political processes—to overcome the supposed demonic influences. Demonic influence is reflected, for example, in the church’s consideration of the ordination of gays and lesbians. Theological and political differences among members of a church are not unusual, of course. But where some see differences, others see demons.

While not exclusively a charismatic theology and practice, spiritual warfare has been most closely identified with the charismatic movement. The lead agency of the practice in the PC(USA) is the charismatic caucus called Presbyterian-Reformed Ministries International (PRMI), which is headquartered in Black Mountain, North Carolina.

For more than 30 years, the PC(USA) has been under attack from within by a conservative “renewal movement.” This movement comprises a broad cross section of entities that seek to advance conservative evangelical agendas and that are generally opposed to the progressive social justice tradition of the church. Although PRMI, and charismatics generally, are often considered part of a fringe movement, the group is playing a prominent role in the conservative renewal movement in the PC(USA). Similar renewal movements with charismatic elements are politically active in other mainline churches as well

The conservative drive for power in the PC(USA) has entered an advanced stage, as marked by the 1998 publication of the Declaration and Strategy Paper of the Presbyterian Coalition (the central political vehicle of the renewal movement). This manifesto couples a bold theological vision with a strategic five-year plan to gain comprehensive control of the church. PRMI’s role in the conservative renewal movement may provide an indication of what awaits the church should the rightists prevail.

Spiritual Espionage and Bold Commandos

The contemporary charismatic movement—dubbed the “third wave of the holy spirit” by evangelical theologian Peter Wagner—followed the Pentecostal movement of the early 20th century and the charismatic revival in the mainline churches in the late 1960s. PRMI executive director Zeb Bradford Long (Brad Long) is on the steering committee of the North American Renewal Service Committee (NARSC), the main coordinating body of third wave Pentecostal, Catholic, Protestant, and other charismatic currents.1 Wagner described Long’s recent book, Prayer That Shapes the Future, as “an awesome contribution ... toward lifting the prayer movement to a new level.”2

One of the main features of the third wave is a concept called “strategic level spiritual warfare,” which was developed by Peter Wagner and others. According to PRMI author Tom White, this notion of a “strategic level” has expanded in connection with the AD 2000 and Beyond movement, the most comprehensive evangelical mission effort ever mounted. The PC(USA) joined AD 2000 and Beyond in 1995, under the influence of conservative evangelicals in the denomination.3

One important feature of strategic spiritual warfare is the “mapping” of “territorial spirits.” Spiritual mapping—Brad Long calls it “spiritual espionage”4 —involves research into a prevailing alignment of demonic principalities and forces and the strategic identification of particular demonic influences thought to be inhibiting Christ’s victory. Individuals, practices, policies, and structures are sometimes identified as components of a wider “demonic stronghold” that Satan is using to advance his kingdom against that of Christ.

Strategically focused prayer is thought to damage these strongholds through a type of spiritual engagement that meets Satan on his own terrain. To do this, practitioners employ “various prayer methodologies designed to confront presumed principalities, weaken their influence over a particular area or nation, and clear the atmosphere for a more effective sprouting of the seeds of gospel truth.”5 Tactics range from what Tom White calls “old-style intercession, to bold commando-style confrontations with principalities.”6

PRMI has initiated a strategic level spiritual warfare campaign against denominational structures supporting the work of women, gays, and lesbians in the church. This campaign was precipitated by a controversy over the church’s Women of Faith awards in 1999, one recipient of which was the openly lesbian Presbyterian leader, Jane Spahr.

The above is part of a map of the “demonic stronghold” in the Presbyterian Church (USA) distributed by the Presbyterian Renewal Ministries International (PRMI). The arrow indicate influence in the structure of the church and the “Darker Shade Shows Sphere of Stronghold’s Influence.”

PRMI’s map of the demonic stronghold and influences in the PC(USA)—which has been distributed within the church—is revealing. According to the key to the map, part of which is shown here, the shading indicates the degree of demonic influence. The Women’s Ministries unit, as well as the Presbyterian Health, Education, and Welfare Association, a consortium of health-related service and social justice networks, are, according to the map, fully within the demonic sphere. Even the mainstream Presbyterian Women is partially held in Satan’s grip.

Four unofficial Presbyterian organizations, each within the mainstream of the church, have been grouped together on the PRMI map as components of the demonic stronghold. PRMI identifies these groups as embodiments of the ReImagining movement, a wide-ranging ecumenical network that has been engaged in feminist theological work since the early 1990s. Only one of these groups, however, is actually part of the ReImagining movement. ReImagining gained national attention in 1994 after being attacked in the pages of The Presbyterian Layman, the bimonthly newspaper of the rightist Presbyterian Lay Committee (PLC), and the leading publication of the right-wing renewal movement in the PC(USA).

The one ReImagining-related group on the PRMI map is Voices of Sophia, a network that studies feminine and feminist currents within the Bible and in Christian tradition. ReImagining and Voices of Sophia have been unfairly accused of attempting to replace the Bible with pagan traditions and of worshipping the Greek goddess Sophia. Although the organization bears the name of Sophia, in fact it embraces a wide ranging “wisdom tradition” in biblical understanding and scholarship. Sophia is the Greek word for wisdom, which is also personified as the goddess. Sophia as wisdom is specifically included in several books of the Bible, notably Proverbs. The wisdom tradition, of which Sophia is but one part, stands well within mainstream biblical scholarship and Christian tradition.7 The primary focus of ReImagining and of Voices of Sophia is to seek the ongoing relevance of biblical and Christian tradition to issues of women’s role in society. To facilitate this, the group cultivates continuing rather than static understandings of divine revelation. The other three groups PRMI corrals as ReImagining-linked components of the demonic stronghold have only tangential relationships to this movement: the gay and lesbian More Light Presbyterians; the Witherspoon Society, Presbyterianism’s historic social justice group; and the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, a moderate formation that advocates dialogue with the right while holding out for the eventual removal of the denomination’s current ban on gay ordination.

Demons, not Demonization

Charismatics engaged in spiritual warfare sometimes claim to have physical encounters with supernatural evil. When they say this, they are not merely equating things they consider to be sinful with demons, or “demonizing” their opponents. They believe that their opponents are literally possessed by or are agents of Satan. Such views can mask the shared humanity and accompanying mutual respect and legitimacy that is a prerequisite for fundamental democratic rights in both church and society, regardless of theological and political differences.

PRMI leader Brad Long reports that for the last nine years, PRMI has engaged in intensive spiritual warfare at PC(USA) General Assemblies, where “on several occasions high level demonic beings that are being invited into our church by the very ideologies embodied in the people given the ‘women of faith’ award have manifested in the room.” These demons were “cast out in the name of Jesus,” according to Long, who explains the political context in which spiritual warfare has been waged over the years—notably the 1996 effort to pass Amendment B, the church’s ban on gay ordination. “We are going to have to fight this battle year after year against erosion of Biblical faith,” Long concludes, “until these demonic strongholds of deception have been exposed and cast down.”8

PRMI reports that at the 1999 General Assembly it “engage[d] high level spirits of deception” from early on. PRMI also notes the “special significance” of the moment during the Assembly “when a group of ordained women were on their knees asking forgiveness for the apostasy represented by those who received the Women of Faith awards . . . As this took place we could sense that ground was being taken back that had been yielded to Satan.”9 This episode highlights both the role of “intercessory” prayer in strategic level spiritual warfare and PRMI’s focus on women as a source of evil.

PRMI has since called for further intercessory prayer “to overcome a demonic stronghold that has taken root in the Presbyterian Church (USA).” This demon-infested locus, it says, is responsible for introducing “paganism” and promoting “immoral lifestyles” in the church. PRMI declared “that we have been led by the Holy Spirit to spend the money and time to call all the intercessors of [PRMI] to also engage in this spiritual battle.”10

There is clearly a point at which intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare become explicitly political. PRMI is a member of the Presbyterian Renewal Network, an unincorporated association of renewal groups that has coordinated rightist initiatives at the General Assembly in close collaboration with a political strategy group called the Presbyterian Forum. The Forum’s executive director, Bob Davis, thanked PRMI for its 1999 work, particularly its letter to delegates protesting the Women of Faith awards. According to Davis, this letter “provided a welcome and terrible word of judgment—so forthright and honest that it lifted the smoke from the scene and brought clarity to those charged with the responsibility of voting. The results from the floor speak for themselves.” Indeed, “[we] could not do what we do without the foundation of prayer that you have provided,” he further notes.11

Logan’s Slogan

This chart, distributed by PRMI, accuses the Women’s Ministries of rejecting God and falsely worshipping the goddess Sophia.

Rev. James H. Logan Jr., a past president and board member of PRMI, railed against inclusivity in the church at the 1999 General Assembly. Logan punctuated his General Assembly sermon with the refrain “Don’t lower the bar!”—referring to a supposed lowering of church standards. Logan’s slogan became the conservative battle cry at the Assembly. Logan set a similar tone at the annual meeting of the right-wing Presbyterian Coalition in 1999. He preached on the need to rely on God in the midst of “enemy territory,” citing the biblical example of King David in his conflict with the Amalekites.

Logan is also slated to preach at PRMI’s upcoming Pentecost 2000 conference—which includes a spiritual warfare track and is co-sponsored by The Presbyterian Layman. Layman editor Parker Williamson is scheduled to join Alan Leach, PRMI director of prayer and mission outreach, in leading an “equipping track” on “Discerning the Times,” which will deal with the question “What is Satan doing in western culture?” In 1999, Williamson may have offered a preview of what he thinks Satan is up to and what needs to be done about it. In a speech from the floor at the Presbyterian Coalition’s annual meeting, he called for a “bloody battle” for control of the church.12

PRMI leader Brad Long, in turn, has spoken at events sponsored by the Presbyterian Lay Committee, including the dedication of the PLC’s new office in 1998, at which he praised the organization for embodying “the truth of Jesus Christ in the role of a prophet.”13 PRMI became concerned when Williamson was scheduled to deliver a speech at Carnegie Hall in New York City in 1999, because Williamson was “aware that he may well be walking into hostile territory.” Consequently, PRMI issued a “Prayer Alert” urging its members to “provide intercessory prayer covering by praying on site.”14

The Trials of 1999

Charismatics, some with a bent for spiritual warfare, are playing a prominent role in the conservative movement’s efforts to enforce the ban on gay ordination through the church judicial system. One of the four cases backed by the Presbyterian Coalition’s task force on church discipline in 1999 was brought by Rev. Samuel Schreiner, who has been active in PRMI.15 In another of the four cases, Rev. Stephen Noll, an Episcopal priest and advocate of spiritual warfare, testified as an expert witness. Noll was put on the stand by Julius B. Poppinga, counsel for the complainants in the case against the Presbytery of Hudson River, which has resolved to allow “holy unions,” same-sex partnership ceremonies, in its churches.

In his recent book, Angels of Light, Powers of Darkness, Noll declares that “hedging out the demons is a particular responsibility of the church in its mission strategy and its inner discipline.”16 He agrees with Peter Wagner’s belief in the necessity of spiritual warfare to eliminate “territorial spirits” in the mission field as well.17 Noll is especially interested in apocalyptic scenarios in which the “active role in holy war” is transferred from “the angels to the Christian believers.” He writes, “[Angels] convey our prayers and cheer us on, but it is our special calling to share in the bloody victory of the lamb.”18 For many years dean of academic affairs at the Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry, Noll was formerly associate pastor of the charismatic Truro Episcopal Church in Fairfax, Virginia, whose members have included such rightist luminaries as Oliver North and Clarence Thomas.

Another leading spiritual warrior operating in the field of Presbyterian international missions is Dr. Ralph Winter.19 Winter founded the evangelical U.S. Center for World Mission and for many years served as a member of the steering committee of the theocratic Coalition on Revival, a coordinating body of far-right Reformed, evangelical, and charismatic leaders. Winter is a pioneer in the “unreached peoples” mission movement, which employs sophisticated use of anthropological data and analysis to help weaken indigenous resistance to evangelical Christianity.

More recently, Winter has promoted “microscopic spiritual warfare” against disease: “[m]y thoughts are no more spectacular or provocative than the revolutionary idea that God wants us to represent to people the full spectrum of His love by involvement in the entire battlefront of His conquering Kingdom. This pits us against the stratagems of the prince of darkness on a wider front. It is more and more clear to me that He is expecting us to work along with Him in that wider front, at His side, fighting back against Satan in every area and every level of Satan’s destructive invasion of creation.”20 In 1999, Presbyterians for Renewal, the leading conservative renewal network in the PC(USA), honored Winter with its Bell-Mackay award for mission leadership.

Words of War

The very views that may seem idiosyncratic to outsiders can be powerful factors in the religious and political motivations of self-described spiritual warriors. Far from being marginal, PRMI is important enough that strategic operators such as Bob Davis and Parker Williamson not only welcome the group, but also closely collaborate with it. Meanwhile, the question of how words and actions are related in spiritual warfare looms large. Given the military metaphors that guide and define the practice, if prayer alone fails to eliminate the supposed demonic stronghold currently gripping the church, what actions will PRMI then believe are required?

The roots of Presbyterianism are well sown by satan; this is a logical outgrowth and development of their origins. I applaud the struggle to come to grips with the situation, but would encourage the people caught within the Presbyterian net to look beyond the ropes to the prospect of life with God, not the snares of the devil.


945 posted on 05/24/2008 1:02:05 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarDav
Don’t you believe that Christ is strong enough to support, hold up, encourage, save, keep, hold onto all that come to Him?

Of course I do.

Whether you realize it or not, the implication of your statement diminishes the Son of the Living God...

It does not. It merely expresses my distaste at the idea of one walking all over Christ (I hope at least that the shoes are removed and the feet are washed).

As if He needed a Church, or anything else!

He founded the Catholic Church. I pity the filthy sinner who tells Him He does not need one or cannot have one.

The Church is not Christ’s equal.

Of course it's not His equal. Catholicism does not teach otherwise.

946 posted on 05/24/2008 1:29:45 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: wmfights

The rattlesnake handlers may be the most faithful for it seems that they believe that if they live in Christ or if they die in Christ, it’s all the same.


947 posted on 05/24/2008 1:31:45 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: wmfights

***Let those that stand on sand claim to be the best. I stand on the ROCK!***

Dwayne Douglas Johnson? I don’t think that he’d like to be stood upon. But what surprises me is that you would be a WWE fan.


948 posted on 05/24/2008 1:38:14 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Iscool
For a full and Catholic dismissal of the Isidorian Decretals, follow http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05773a.htm.

And as for the forged and equally unimportant Donation of Constantine, it is beneath anyone who wishes to be taken seriously to even mention them.


OK, I read the entire article. (I'm probably among the very few who did so) In any event it is far from a "dismissal". Rather, it is a rather weak "explanation" from one who is trying very hard to be truthful while still defending the RCC position.

For a counterpoint the following article will discuss the same topic from another equally "objective" point of view. It is not as wordy as yours but then truth is easier to defend than misdirection and subterfuge.

Papal Forgeries

949 posted on 05/24/2008 1:41:33 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Petronski

“He founded the Catholic Church. I pity the filthy sinner who tells Him He does not need one or cannot have one.”

Filthy sinner? You are being redundant. Is there any other kind? Fortunately, such a one can come to the Bridegroom for cleansing:

Eph 5:25-27 “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

The Scriptures clearly teach us that we are all, ALL filthy sinners (just like you said) and need to come to CHRIST for the cleansing that makes us part of HIS church. Then, once we do, we are no longer filthy sinners (in HIS eyes) even though we may sin from time to time. Because it is He who saves us and not ourselves.

I believe this is what the poster was referring to when speaking of “standing” on the Rock (taking the phrase from the hymn “The Solid Rock” (”all other ground is sinking sand...”)


950 posted on 05/24/2008 1:46:46 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Mad Dawg; Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I wasn't saying what I believed, I was trying to characterize the (or 'a') Protestant position. The best way to make sure communication is happening is to say back what you thought you heard and see if the "sender" recognizes it.

Good enough. Now let me ask basically the same question again, independent of any prior discussion.

Do you believe any Ecumenical Council has ever erred?

(Note I added the word "Ecumenical" to reduce the possibility of a misunderstanding).

951 posted on 05/24/2008 1:49:32 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***OK, I read the entire article. (I’m probably among the very few who did so) ***

I’d agree with you.

***For a counterpoint the following article will discuss the same topic from another equally “objective” point of view. It is not as wordy as yours but then truth is easier to defend than misdirection and subterfuge.***

That’s why I’m so thankful that I am in the position that I am.

***Papal Forgeries***

I didn’t realize that you had hopped into bed with such as William Webster. Please tell me that you at least used a condom.


952 posted on 05/24/2008 1:54:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarDav
You mean a word can have different senses and meanings depending on the context?

Mercy me, who knew?




</sarc>

953 posted on 05/24/2008 1:59:48 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarkBsnr
The Reformed believe that only they have the understanding of the Word of God. Jean Cauvin is a good start. The WCF is another; just make sure that you wear thick rubber gloves, you keep it off the carpet (it stains) and that you wash with a good antiseptic soap.

I admit to being lazy. A short (10 minute) search with Google and ASK.COM didn't help.

Could you please provide link(s) to their Creeds in order to show some level of sincerity in your charge.

954 posted on 05/24/2008 2:19:39 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: MarkBsnr
The roots of Presbyterianism are well sown by satan; this is a logical outgrowth and development of their origins. I applaud the struggle to come to grips with the situation, but would encourage the people caught within the Presbyterian net to look beyond the ropes to the prospect of life with God, not the snares of the devil.

Your hate posting requires another hate posting to balance the "hate" scale.

Catholicism=Satanism-Hate site

The major difference between the two of us is your apparent hate and my "chain pulling". You seem to believe what you are saying. I know mine is not balanced.

955 posted on 05/24/2008 2:33:19 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: MarkBsnr
I didn’t realize that you had hopped into bed with such as William Webster. Please tell me that you at least used a condom.

I know it's much easier for you to be piggy than to address the subject. I didn't expect you'd have an answer. Once again I was correct.
956 posted on 05/24/2008 2:38:56 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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Comment #957 Removed by Moderator

To: Mad Dawg
What does “Despise” mean to you?

Loathing...comtempt...

958 posted on 05/24/2008 3:04:13 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: OLD REGGIE

***The major difference between the two of us is your apparent hate and my “chain pulling”. You seem to believe what you are saying. I know mine is not balanced.***

Hate? I don’t think so.

Reggie, you know where I’m coming from. My last posting was from a pro Presbyterian group addressing the problems with the PC USA church. I simply stepped back and spoke to the problems with the beginnings of the church.

I know that you have said that you have swum the Tiber in reverse; the best Catholics are those who have swum away and then swum back. Interested?


959 posted on 05/24/2008 3:16:06 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CTrent1564
You will never buy this but I'll throw it in anyway since it is God's honest truth...

St. Paul writes “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.

Look ma, no hands...A circumcumcision done with no hands...

You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead”

Look ma, no hands again...A baptism with out using anyone's hands... (c.f. Col 2: 11-12).

So after describing Baptism as replacing circumcision,

If it's a Spiritual circumcision, it HAS to be a Spiritual baptism...NO WATER...THAT'S WHY Jesus said, Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

960 posted on 05/24/2008 3:27:07 PM PDT by Iscool
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