Catholic Mariology, Authority, and Various Other Qualms of Protestants Considering Conversion

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | 11 February 2004 | Dave Armstrong

[papertyger]

I can.

Then why didn't you? All you did was reassert empty claims about what the Scripture does and does not do.

The scriptures assert their own authority.

No they don't. The Scripture doesn't even list what IS Scripture. Jesus left a Church to guide his people, not a book.

The meaning of most scripture is plain.

If its meaning is so plain, why does every Church except the only one that can claim apostolic succession have a different interpretation?

The most essential message of God’s Word for our faith is simple enough for a child to understand.

More cliches. Again, if it's so simple, why so many different "Bible" Christians?

Of such is God’s kingdom. But these things are hidden from the wise and prudent.

...wisdom is justified of all her children. (Lk 7:35)

That was just the first paragraph of your post.

Correcting you could become a full-time job!

[xzins]

Because of the obvious symbolisms used throughout, the identity of the woman is clearly open.

The other things done by the woman indicate that it is not Mary.

[Beloved Levinite]

"But this is no different from what Jesus told us to expect, anyway. He said families would be divided and that discipleship was costly. If other people can't accept our choices made under God, in conscience and faith, with the use of reason and study and bathed with prayer, then in the end that is their problem. It may be difficult and painful and hurtful, for sure, but no one ever promised that following Jesus was a bed of roses." You mustn't be familiar with, arguably, the most popular preacher in America today: one, Joel Osteen.

[Beloved Levinite]

Awesome, unlearner! You speak *The Truth,* IMO!

[Iscool]

...wisdom is justified of all her children. (Lk 7:35)

You didn't get it, did you??? Read the discourse...Jesus was mocking people who used their own wisdom...

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

[FourtySeven]

Paul knew he was a sinner because he couldn't keep the law...And that's not the ceremonial law as you guys falsly claim...We're talking the 10 Commandments here...Paul became aware of sin when the Commandments showed up...Had nothing to do with faith...

I still maintain that the reality of God for St. Paul was never made a fact for him until his encounter with Christ. However, even if one takes the view you do (that St. Paul knew that, say, adultery was wrong from the 10 Commandments), this sill proves what I'm saying, which is, one must have a "fact" to base one's faith upon, or else it's a theological construct. An abstraction. IOW, not a "reality", by every definition of the word "reality".

So, let's say St. Paul knew adultery was wrong for what you say, because of the 10 commandments (and note, as an aside, in my prior post I don't exclude other sources of reality for St. Paul, I only said *one* of these sources was probably his encounter on the road to Damascus). The point is, again, he *knew* it was wrong. This implies the necessity for a fact. And a fact, can only be derived from reality. The rest of my prior post then follows from this.

[annalex]

Here are Gates of Hell illustrated:

Resurrection

Resurrected Christ, Whose Cross has turned into a staff of victory is descending to Hell in order to rescue the dead. He is shown pulling Adam from his grave. Eve is awaiting her turn. He is accompanied by St. John the Baptist the forerunner, King David, an Old Testament prophet and a female character; I cannot identify the latter two.

The gates are under His feet, broken and unhinged, with pieces of gate hardware strewn around. Satan is shown bound and defeated, yet still defiant.

Variations of this icon are in the composition of the group accompanying Christ, and who of them is shown with nimbi. Satan is sometimes omitted altogether. This icon is also known as Descend to Hades, or Descend to Limbo.

[annalex]

This attitude: mother of Christ (Apoc. 12) isn’t Mary, water (Jonh 3) isn’t baptism, “not by faith alone” (James 2) means the opposite — is a good illustration why Protestant claims of interest in the Holy Scripture are so comical.

[Iscool]

I still maintain that the reality of God for St. Paul was never made a fact for him until his encounter with Christ. However, even if one takes the view you do (that St. Paul knew that, say, adultery was wrong from the 10 Commandments),

It's not MY view...It's what the scripture says...Without interpretation...

And my point is; man's wisdom is useless without the truth of the scripture...AND, you'll never understand scripture with your own wisdom...

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[annalex]

the Bible not only allows for believers to question those who are or assert themselves to be in spiritual authority over us, BUT it actually commands us to

[...]It is the listener’s responsibility to discern and reject what is false

True.

We confirm whether doctrine is true by comparing it with what the scriptures say:

True. What do you do when the Scripture does not say anything?

Jesus proved His testimony to be true on the basis of scripture: John 8:16-18

No, He said His testimony is true because He is the Truth, not because of some Jewish legalism.

Christ commends those who test the claims of apostolic authority:

Our bishops are not apostles, but are descendants of them in a line of consecrations. This is a historical fact, test away.

The word of God is alive and authoritative by itself. A person’s ability to understand it is determined by their willingness to be obedient to it and to the Holy Spirit

When there are two reasonable interpretations, you have to recourse to something extra scriptural. Your claims of being "willing to be obedient to the Holy Ghost" is a meaningless phrase, which anyone, including -- with greeater authority -- any Catohlic prelate can make. He, at the very least, gave us his right to marry and have children for it.

The sin of all of mankind is presented repeatedly with a view to the death of Christ being the only possible means of salvation.

True, but nowhere does it say that Christ could not alsoo save His mother from any sin, including Original sin. The rest of your paragraph, likewise, fights strawmen (or strawwomen?)

You post is too long. I will take up the rest later.

[wagglebee]

Here’s the source:

http://www.christiantruth.com/Testimony.html

[Iscool]

This attitude: mother of Christ (Apoc. 12) isn’t Mary, water (Jonh 3) isn’t baptism, “not by faith alone” (James 2) means the opposite — is a good illustration why Protestant claims of interest in the Holy Scripture are so comical.

I admit there are many things about your church I don't know (but am fast learning)...But as far as being an authority on the Scriptures, your church IS NOT...

If your pope can't see faith 'alone' anywhere in the scripture, he'd miss a Cadillac sittin' in his living room...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The scripture doesn't get any more simple than this...If you guys don't get this, you won't get none of it...

[FourtySeven]

These are all very true and good points. However, what I’m talking about is the need for man to have a “fact” to base one’s faith upon. This fact is, of course (as the verses you posted state) God.

IOW, what I’m stating here is (and what I stated in the original post that got your intention) was that if one’s faith is not based on a fact (if say, we are just Christians because our family raised us that way, or to look good in a community), it will never really be real to that person. This fact must be so remarkable that it can only come from God. So I’m not saying that it is our wisdom apart from God that gets us to Him. It’s our wisdom, based on the initial fact that comes from God, that can be used to come to a fuller (more mature) understanding and grounding of our faith.

[Truth Defender]

“the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river” (ydor os potamon). How would you describe the copious liquid that comes out of the mouth of Satan, (or in fact anyone else) and why the urge to not offend him?

Very easily...WATER, just as it says. Of course, this is all symbolic.

[Truth Defender]

St. John the Chrysostom asked a similar question and this is his answer:

While I do read the early writers, their words mean no more to me than do current writers in speaking on scriptures. All they tell us is what they think it means, and others may agree or disagree.

Martha speaks these words after Christ tells her "I am the Resurrection"; likewise Nathaniel does so after Christ shows him His omniscience. But Peter confesses without leading questions, as a revealed knowledge from the Father.

Peter, along with the other apostles, was asked a very explicit question..."But who do you say I am?" If that is not a leading question, what is? Peter and the other apostles had heard Jesus say that he is the life (resurrection)on many occasions. But, naturally, they never really took him serious until after he rose from the dead. Peter's response, I believe, was as the Holy Spirit, which is God, moved him to speak.