1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.Thus, we Mormons invite all to Get a free Book of Mormon read it and compare it with the Bible and see if they are Both the same spirit (i.e. the spirit of God), further, we invite all who read to pray, and ask God to testify to the of the truth of the Bible and of Jesus Christs divinity, thus putting First John 4:1-3 to work in determining if the Book of Mormon is of God or not. The anti Mormons what to they typically do when faced with this?
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
You denigrate the Bible with your lengthy self-serving post (even tossing in a bit of mormonism proselytizing for effect), and then try to dismiss the asseertion that mormonism apologist at FR denigrate the BIble? Bwahahaha, your meds need adjusting.
And in your typical style of de-contexting scripture, you have conveniently left out 2Thess 2: 6-8 which show the context of the falling away to be right before Jesus returns and destroys with the brightness of His coming the evil one proclaiming himself to be god. Thus the ‘falling away’ is a scene just at the end of the Church Age, not found in the hat and peepstone Joe Smith used to fabricate his Bof M. But that was a nice try, DU. You keep trying to denigrate the Bible ... God will get to you yet! There is hope!!
If you are claiming the bom to be that second witness, then it first stands and falls upon the credibility of the writer – Joseph Smith – how well would his word stand up in a court of law. Not too well as a convicted treasure seeker/scam artist from his NY days to a perjuring witness denying that he was wed to multiple women while in reality he was married to at least 9. His First Vision stories are contradictory. His translation of the Book of Breathing papyrus has been shown to be bogus. He claimed to have started translating the Kinderhook plates – which were shown to be fraud by both the perpetrators as well as modern metals testing. And while we are talking credibility, still waiting for those great archaeological discoveries to be headlined in every major anthropological and archaeological publication documenting where the bom cities are in N. America. Your Three Witnesses were all excommunicated and denounced by Smith as liars. Most of the remaining 8 witnesses left the LDS within a short period too.
Being contextually challenged too, the immediate contextual setting for 2Cor 13 is that Paul quoting this passage from Deuteronomy 19:15, and quotes it in reference to his coming visit. Either the two or three witnesses are Paul’s three visits, or the testimony of his associates. But the point of the quotation is to remind the Corinthian Christians that he comes this time as a judge. He has enough evidence to write, “If I come again I will not spare.” Sadly (for DU), this has nothing to do with the supposed witness of the bom.
Have you heard of The Johannine Comma?
Red herring – the understanding about it has been out longer than you have been alive. How about the thousands of changes to the bom? Which Bible is it that's complete, the Catholic, or the Protestant one?
Mormons would say the Protestant one, since by doctrine mormons do not accept the apocrypha – more obfuscation. However, more to the point is why aren’t mormons using the Joseph Smith Translation and discarding the KJV, since the JST was fixed by Smith via revelation.
Why isn't the book of Enoch (quoted by in all the Gospels and by Jesus himself in the Bible? (it's in the dead sea scrolls as part of the scriptures)
Psssssst. Those alleged quotes came from the section of 1 Enoch called the Similitudes. Subtle hint – Similitudes are not present at the dss site. More subtle hint - most scholars believe they were written well after the time of Christ. But that doesn’t matter either since Enoch was never considered scripture by the Jews or Christians. But then that should not be a problem for the church with a living seer and prophet – those books could be added to the lds canon at any time.
Why are there so many different Bibles, new ones being added seemingly every day? (Somebody thinks they need a new version interpreted their way...)
Yes, more ways to express the richness of the greek and Hebrew in a way understandable to todays society. But why hasn’t the mormon church canonized the JST since that was the inspired cure all for the KJV translation???????
So is it denigration to point out the truth? (anti's keep claiming that is all they are doing, you can't have it both ways...)
What is denigrating? Only your poorly researched presentation in an attempt to discredit the bible to the eyes of Christians (but then you don’t participate in that).
God did Tell of a coming falling away... 2 Thes. 2: 1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I have asked mormons this with no answer - who is the son of perdition – he should be revealed and recognized for all to see? Name him. Has Christ returned? Biblical key word study of the term day of Christ or similar indicates the end of times. Have we been in the end of times since????????
More tripe and mis application of 1 John.
The anti Mormons what to they typically do when faced with this?
Since you have identified me as an anti in the past, you are broad brushing here. Reading these, you seem to make my points. Never the less, as a challenge to the bible the claims of the bom must also be examined as the Bereans examined Paul’s testimony. They weren’t condemned for it as you condemn us. The bom calls for people to pray about it. So lets see about these excuses
Try to explain why the Book of Mormon can't be true.
Lets just say that the overwhelming evidence (and the lack of the proof) shows that there was no Nephi civilization in the new world during the periods of time claimed by the bom. Further, studies have shown the native Americans to be Mongolian descent – not Jewish by multiple physical, and dna related methods. The story is false and only a false spirit would convince otherwise
Impugn the name of dead men in an attempt to make Mormons look weird.
One doesn’t have to work hard at all, they did a pretty good job of doing it all by themselves. BTW, being dead does not infer credibility to these dead people one bit, their credibility is still open to evaluation and challenge. But then that’s what they pay FARMS for.
Testify that they didn't receive an answer.
Bottom line here is that DU is calling all of you who received an resounding NO, are liars in an effort to mute our testimony, as he had done with me in the past to others without the honor to ping me on his comments.
Lie about our doctrine
Much time here has been given to present mormon doctrine – even from non-canon sources (which heaven forbid an anti would try to do). Your problem is that we just won’t let you do you spin job on the exposed truth.
Misquote our leaders
As one Freeper P-marlo showed, Young taught the Adam-God doctrine by being allowed to cite the entire sermon. Problem is that you complain when we put down too much context.
Tell people that Satan will answer their prayers.
He tricked Peter : Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
And in 2 Cor 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
And if Satan can trick Adam and Eve in the garden, his MO is still the same today. If Satan can’t disguise a false answer to prayer, the apostles spent a lot of ink warning us about it and Satan is pretty much a failure.
Try to tell people we and the FLDS are the same church (we're not in case anyone wondered).
Oh, modern history. No, FLDS is what officially LDS was through the mid 1890’s and in some circumstances as late as 1910 and without the repeal of Section 132, could well be again.
anything but encourage people to pray about the Book of Mormon.
That is because we have already received our spiritual message and the Spirit says NO. And I will stand with the many former mormons here who have realized the same and come out. Now how valid are DUs final observations?
Anti's place Logic above revelation.
Nope, Paul said to prove all things. We further believe that the Bible is all the revelation we need.
Anti's will say bad things about someone when they aren't around to defend themselves.
Again, a remark about Smith, et al inability to defend themselves or their teachings. So sad, but the pay FARMS to pick up the slack.
Anti's believe they can receive revelation for you (even when they tell you revelation has ceased)
This is laughable and fluffy – I have yet to see an anti here make this claim in that context.
Anti's think Lurkers are stupid.
On the contrary, speaking for myself (though I suspect it is shared by other antis) the lurkers are very smart and the responses to the right handed typing posts by mormons here make the point very well. Secondly, I would not be going into the detail I do if I considered the readers to be stupid. What they may think about mormon theology and apologia is another matter.
Anti's think Lurkers won't read the responses, and Can't use Google.
Again, see previous line, people here are FR are very literate.
Anti's don't believe God answers prayers to him.
Just a little earlier DU posted a statement saying that we lie about mormon doctrine. Kettle meet pot.
Anti's think Catholics and protestants are the same church (hey, it's the same logic splits in religion = same religion...)
I will rejoice with my Catholic brothers and sisters in heaven in that we are both catholic, members of the saved throughout the ages (DU fails to understand the difference in the uses and application of the term ecclesia, but we love him anyway) and we will both be amaze at what we will find out then. But what DU fails to realize is that denominations do not equal separate religions, but different ways of interpreting and applying the faith we share. This faith cannot be shared in the same way with mormons because their theology is completely incompatable with Christianity. This enormous mormon hose job of the past few days has made this clear.
Anti's don't think Lurkers can get a prayer right
Doesn’t everyone just LOVE the way DU is able to leap to such conclusions and do it with a straight type font. Unremarkably, one will look far and wide to prove this.
Absurd! You make an utterly illegitimate assertion.
The Bible is not one book with one human penman. The Book contains, in and of itself, many witnesses.
On the other hand, the Book of Mormon is penned by one man - one false witness.
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.
The Testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.
He is our Testimony, who have received His Living Spirit. We know Him by His Spirit that lives in us.
There is nothing that can be added to His Witness, and whoever takes away from His Witness is a false prophet, and is under a curse. There are no new books to be written, since Jesus came to fulfill all that was written about Him.
The Gospel accounts are simply witnesses of His coming and of His fulfilling of what was written about Him, to be done at His coming in flesh.
Even the book of Revelation which tells of the Day of His being revealed to the world, and the judgment of the world at that time, was already written about before, by Enoch the prophet, who saw all things that ever will be, and who saw the visions of the Holy One in the heavens, before He came in flesh pf second creation human being, as brother and therefore Kinsman, to Redeem Adam, to fulfill the biblical law of kinsman/redeemer..
God spoke in times past by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His son, directly -
and which last days are the last days since Jesus came, for He came in flesh in the beginning of the fifth day of earth’s one allotted week of one thousand year days, as the prophets of old revealed.
There is, since He came, ascended, and gave the Revelation of His coming to John, nothing more to say, and no one else to be sent to say anything different, since Jesus is come. He is the “Last Word” from the Father.
There is now nothing but the witness of Him, and the Testimony of Him, being given by the Church to the world.
Christians place what the BIBLE has already said, over Joseph Smith's sputterings.