Posted on 05/06/2008 5:15:38 PM PDT by markomalley
The Vatican has said that the time has come for the Anglican Church to choose between Protestantism and the ancient churches of Rome and Orthodoxy. Speaking on the day that the Archbishop of Canterbury met Benedict XVI in Rome, Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Pontifical Council of Christian Unity, said it was time for Anglicanism to "clarify its identity". He told the Catholic Herald: "Ultimately, it is a question of the identity of the Anglican Church. Where does it belong? "Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century? At the moment it is somewhere in between, but it must clarify its identity now and that will not be possible without certain difficult decisions." He said he hoped that the Lambeth conference, an event which brings the worldwide Anglican Communion together every 10 years, would be the deciding moment for Anglicanism. Cardinal Kasper, who has been asked to speak at the Lambeth Conference by the Archbishop of Canterbury, said: "We hope that certain fundamental questions will be clarified at the conference so that dialogue will be possible. "We shall work and pray that it is possible, but I think that it is not sustainable to keep pushing decision-making back because it only extends the crisis." His comments will be interpreted as an attempt by Rome to put pressure on the Church of England not to proceed with the ordination women bishops or to sanction gay partnerships, both serious obstacles to unity. They have come at an extremely sensitive time for the Anglican Communion, as cracks between different factions in the church are beginning to show ahead of the conference in July. Dr Rowan Williams faces rebellion from conservative and liberal Anglicans over homosexuality and women bishops. The Rt Rev Gene Robinson, the Anglican bishop of New Hampshire, whose attempts to enter into a civil union with his gay partner have angered conservative Anglicans, plans to attend the public events of the conference despite the fact that he has not been invited by Dr Williams. On the other side of the spectrum, rebel conservative bishops, headed by Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, dismayed by the Archbishop of Canterbury's refusal to condemn homosexuality outright, plan a rival conference in the Holy Land in June. Ecumenical dialogue between Rome and the Anglican Communion ground to a halt in 2006. Cardinal Kasper said at the time that a decision by the Church of England to consecrate women bishops would lead to "a serious and long lasting chill". But last month the Church of England's Legislative Drafting Group published a report preparing the ground for women bishops, who are already ordained in several Anglican provinces. |
The choice for the Episcopal and Anglican Churches is between paganism and Christianity. They haven’t reached the level of choosing between Protestantism and Catholicism.
Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
So unless they are directly involved in the act, it isn't that simple. It gets into a "judgement call."
Can. 1369 A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty.Can. 1399 In addition to the cases established here or in other laws, the external violation of a divine or canonical law can be punished by a just penalty only when the special gravity of the violation demands punishment and there is an urgent need to prevent or repair scandals.
There are the canons that would need to be applied. Unfortunately, the process to apply those canons would need to be done through litigation, applying a ferendae sententiae punishment, rather than latae sententiae (automatic). And you KNOW that would be ugly.
For me, I would be happy if the individual's bishop would grow a set of cahones large enough to publicly direct the individual in question to not receive communion and to direct his pastors to not distribute communion to the individual in question.
But barring that, I hear your words.
From the sixteenth century until the 1960's, or maybe 70's that was a lively question. From Elizabeth I prefering to hear Latin mass even after cementing Anglicanism as the state church of England, to Thomas Ken's dying profession of faith, to the Oxford Movement, Anglicanism always had a pole that tried to be a sort of Western Orthodox, as well as a very protestant pole.
Alas, around the 1960's the trend that began with the Latitudinarians reached its logical conclusion and 'Anglican inclusiveness' started including apostates and pagans. Heresy ceased to be a 'relevant category' (in the words of the Episcopalian House of Bishops at the time of their failure to judge Bishop Pike as a heretic for denying the Trinity). (And with it truth evidently ceased to be a 'relevant category' as another ex-Anglican, the senior priest of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese is fond of noting).
Now, it's a dead question. The vast majority of Anglicans who upheld the Catholic pole of Anglicanism have swum the Bosphorus or the Tiber, or decamped for one of the Continuing Anglican Churches. All that's left is the fight between the still-Christian, but most assuredly protestant 'Southern Global South' and the paganized Anglicans of the US and white Commonwealth.
I have to apologize, sometimes (OK way too often) I let my emotions get the best of me. I think you and I can both agree that we love Christianity and are annoyed at being let down at times by our Church and its leadership.
‘Nuff said
Knock yourself out.
You will hear me decrying homosexual priests just as loudly as you do. If not louder! In fact, I would guess that any of the Catholic FReepers would be right there! (And it makes sense, as it directly impacts US)
In fact, you could add McCarrick, formerly (thank God formerly) of DC...Wakefield...and others.
If you read any of the Catholic threads posted here by Catholic posters, you won't think that ANY of us have any illusions as to how corrupt the US Church is. Thanks be to God there are a few good ones: Burke, Chaput, and a few others.
The big difference between the two institutions is that in the cases I've cited, official, on the record endorsement was provided by a national episcopal conference (of TEC in the US). Thanks be to God, that kind of thing has never even been attempted by the USCCB...and if they ever dared do it, Rome would b**ch-slap them so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Especially with the current Pontiff.
Corruption is bad, no matter where (a jail-bait hunting preacher is just as bad as a jail-bait hunting priest is just as bad as a jail-bait hunting rabbi, etc.). But there is a huge difference between widespread corruption among individuals in an institution and official sanction given.
So if you want to bad-mouth the officials and many of the parishes in the US Catholic Church, go for it. But keep in mind it's been said before. By Catholics.
Is the Anglican Communion going to be anchored by Scripture and their articles of faith or is doctrine going to up for a vote every few years?
Seems like.
You speak truth, ModelBreaker. Pentecost killed religion--now it is simply "wherever two or more are gathered in my Name".
At some point in time the British Parliament will rescind The Act of Settlement and the C. of E. will cease to be a state church. When that happens,the C. of E. will for all intents and purposes cease to exist. Without the backing of the British govt and the prestige that the attachment to the monarchy gives it, the C. of E. will be revealed for what it actually in fact is - a state-run, hyper-Protestant, and numerically very weak, denomination that long ago ceased to have any real impact on British life. At this point, the so-called Anglican Communion will also cease to exist, and the various Anglican Churches around the world will simply have to make it on their own. Many are more-than-prepared to do so right now, and most of them are far more successful, both in numbers of members and in effective mission, than either the C. of E. or the American Episcopalians are.
As someone who had been an Episcopalian and is now a Lutheran, I must disagree. I would suggest to any alienated Anglican that Catholicism is not the only alternative; the conservative Lutheran congregations would welcome you.
The churches of the first century did not have multi-multi-multi billions in assets and income, a government all to itself, a church every couple of miles in most cities all over the world, and a bureaucracy that rivals the US Government.
And you couldn't drive a car or post on the Internet 10 minutes after you were born, either. :-)
Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them.
Rome hunted down plenty of Catholics and killed them before AD 313. And plenty of Catholics are being killed today, in various parts of the world, for their faith. There were more martyrs (both Catholic and every other Christian persuasion) in the last century than in the 19 preceding ones.
Someone forgot to tell the first Christians. Like, for instance, the bishop of Antioch, who was installed by the Apostles, and wrote, on his way to martyrdom in Rome, that to offer the Eucharist "behind the bishop's back" was no different than devil worship.
Someone even forgot to tell James, who was present at Pentecost, and later wrote: Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27)
(The verse you cite was addressed to the Apostles, not to everyone, and is not some sort of blanket permission to run off and start your own church.)
Ping!
You are spot on. Consequently, the decision has already been made. The struggle now is between protestantism and some kind of new agey mush.
The article did not say that the choice is between Protestantism and Catohlicism, but it did say that the choice is between Protestaqntism on one hand and either Catholicism or Orthodoxy on the other. The "balance" you speak of is illusory.
My point was that TEC must decide if it is going to be pagan or Christian. Denial of the basics of the faith removes them from the greater Christian community, and plops them down in paganism.
I can imagine “high church” Anglicans coming into the fold individually, or even by individual church. But it would take nothing short of a miracle to bring the entire church in. Henry VIII’s decision has had inevitable consequences, as his church has strayed further and further from Rome, orthodoxy, and Orthodoxy.
Do you really judge the authenticity of a Christian church by its similarity to the ancient church?
That's an important question, because the ancient Church had bishops, a supreme bishop, priests, the Eucharist, Penance, etc. In fact, the teachings and rites of the ancient Christian Church are very much like Catholic teachings and rites today.
I'll grant that the Catholic Church today is much larger than it was 2000 years ago. But I don't recall Jesus forbiding the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," to grow.
You ned to pay more attention to Anglican criticisms of the Anglican Church.
The EPUSA leadership has virtually abandoned all three legs of Anglican theology. We have like-minded bishops in the RC but they are generally quiet. and definitely in the minority.
The Anglican problem is that they have no center, nothing equivalent to the papacy, nor even to a Church Council. Maybe the Jerusalem conference will be a rallying place for traditional Anglicans.
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