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Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
Catholic News Service ^
| May 2, 2008
| By Chaz Muth
Posted on 05/02/2008 12:03:45 PM PDT by colorcountry
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To: restornu
Please cite ANY part of the New Testament where Jesus Christ forced ANYONE to accept Him against their will.
61
posted on
05/02/2008 2:40:43 PM PDT
by
wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
To: colorcountry
It is a hobby, fine, but I must warn you other Christians like you.1 Timothy: 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith
Paul wasn't telling Timothy or other Christians to not do geneology.
Timothy was in Ephesus setting up the Church there, particularly choosing Elders and leaders for the Church. Paul was telling Timothy to pick those that taught sound doctrine, not those that proved they were the most qualified by giving a geneology down to whoever, and not those that told myths about themselves as to why they should be the leaders.
Similarly in the modern LDS church we are also not supposed to pick or call leaders based on their geneology, but through prayer and the spirit, whether they are converts or generational members. Yes I'm talking about Stake Presidents and Bishops that seem to think that converts aren't good enough to serve in church leadership callings.
It also serves as a warning about those that profess that since they are descendant from some leader they somehow have better doctrine then the Church itself does. Yes I'm talking about Sandra Tanner.
62
posted on
05/02/2008 3:00:52 PM PDT
by
Domandred
(McCain's 'R' is a typo that has never been corrected)
To: Domandred
Sounds to me like Paul was warning the folks in Ephesus not to get sidetracked by myths and false teachers (like the Mormons)
Warning Against False Teachers of the Law
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s workwhich is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
63
posted on
05/02/2008 3:07:12 PM PDT
by
colorcountry
(To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
To: wagglebee; mountainbunny
My question
How many Jews were forced to accept Jesus vicarious gift?
***
“Please cite ANY part of the New Testament where Jesus Christ forced ANYONE to accept Him against their will.” ~ wagglebee
Thank you helping me make my point that the “Gift of Vicarious Baptist for the Dead” is the same thing, it is not doing anything against anyone agency
It is an act that is being perform in reserved for that person should they choose to accept the gift!
It one is stuck in a place and this ordinance needs to be done in order to receive the Lord promise the Lord provided a way for it to be done through vicarious Baptist!
When trying to forbid the knowledge that would be used for baptism for the dead, it seems it is those on this side who are hindering that soul on the other side from making their own decision to receive the gift or not to receive the gift!
I would be really upset that some one or group on earth was interfering with my right to chose and deny my progress in the Spirit World.
64
posted on
05/02/2008 3:10:00 PM PDT
by
restornu
To: colorcountry
Didn’t the cult say that they would quit bothering the Jews when they asked, won’t they just leave any faith alone when it is instructed to do so by that faith?
65
posted on
05/02/2008 3:28:49 PM PDT
by
ansel12
(Texas, having to clean up Utah's latter day taints. this cult stuff sucks.)
To: ansel12
wont they just leave any faith alone when it is instructed to do so by that faith? Here's a rhetorical question for you....Will they quit knocking on your door after you tell them you're not interested?
I wonder why they even bother. Instead of sending out 60,000 missionaries, why don't they just go get census information and baptize everyone by proxy. LOL
66
posted on
05/02/2008 3:36:29 PM PDT
by
colorcountry
(To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
To: wagglebee
Whether you agree with Catholicism or not (we know you dont), we CAN show justification for Purgatory in the Bible, Mormons CANNOT show justification for baptism of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:29
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
So, how about the justification for purgatory in the Bible? I've not heard it before.
67
posted on
05/02/2008 3:38:08 PM PDT
by
TheDon
To: restornu
While many christians do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation, for those that do, how do they reconcile the justice, mercy and love of God for His children who never had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ, let alone be baptized? It is a gapping hole in their theology. Of course, those who don’t believe baptism is necessary are in the same boat. You can’t accept someone you’ve never heard of. We have the answers for that question.
68
posted on
05/02/2008 3:43:47 PM PDT
by
TheDon
To: MEGoody
Hmmm. . .something about indulgences and praying for those in purgatory comes to mind.Prayer for those who are dead (for non-LDS, anyway) is not to convert. Praying for souls is just that: praying for souls. It doesn't attempt to convert Jews to Christians and it doesn't pretend to. It doesn't say to Jews that died for being Jewish that they'd have been better off LDS members.
Does praying for people in Purgatory insult the memories of Jews who died in the Holocaust? Not in any way I can think of.
I've never heard a single Jew complain about it. But plenty have complained specifically, and loudly about proxy baptism. Why do you think that is?
People of the Jewish faith have asked many times that the practice stop, yet it continues to this day. See: http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040227/mormons.shtml
And what indulgences have to do with anything is beyond me, unless you need to change the subject away from the one at hand.
To: colorcountry
Shhhh...don’t give them any ideas!
All they need, obviously, is a name, so I guess that technically they could steal the entire US Soc Sec database, “baptize” everyone, and declare that all of the US was Mormon...
70
posted on
05/02/2008 4:13:16 PM PDT
by
livius
To: TheDon
So, how about the justification for purgatory in the Bible? I've not heard it before. There is plenty, but I will use this:
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Matthew 12:32)
It is simply a matter of what is "the world to come." There is no longer any need for forgiveness in Heaven for all has already been forgiven, there is no possibility of forgiveness in Hell, so that means there must be a THIRD "world to come" where forgiveness is both still needed AND still available -- this is Purgatory.
71
posted on
05/02/2008 4:55:17 PM PDT
by
wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
To: TheDon
Else what shall they do ... Who's "they"? It doesn't say "we" or "you" or "the church"; it says "they". We don't know who "they" were.
The Greek also does not demand proxy baptism for the dead; it's more ambiguous than that. There's zero support among the church fathers for the practice AFAIK.
As for purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15 and the immediate vicinity. "Saved, but as through fire" sounds like purgatory to me.
72
posted on
05/02/2008 5:20:06 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: colorcountry; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Add me / Remove me
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
73
posted on
05/02/2008 6:43:34 PM PDT
by
narses
(...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
To: colorcountry
Since the Catholic Church teaches that Mormon baptisms are invalid—as I would have expected—it doesn’t seem to me to be a big deal. These posthumous Mormon baptisms are basically ineffectual.
Perhaps the Vatican issued the order not to share baptismal records with the Mormon Church because that might be mistakenly interpreted as some sort of recognition of their baptisms. Probably parish records should be kept private, in any case, unless someone seems to have a legitimate reason for wanting the information.
But frankly it doesn’t matter to me if anyone knows when and where I was born or baptised.
74
posted on
05/02/2008 6:56:08 PM PDT
by
Cicero
(Marcus Tullius)
To: wagglebee
So purgatory is implied scripturally?
75
posted on
05/02/2008 6:57:38 PM PDT
by
TheDon
To: TheDon
76
posted on
05/02/2008 7:00:15 PM PDT
by
wagglebee
("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
To: TheDon
Don’t you believe in Spirit Prison?
from lds.org
Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:3035). Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:8185).
77
posted on
05/02/2008 7:03:36 PM PDT
by
colorcountry
(To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
To: colorcountry
Questions about baptism for the dead answered here by an LDS member:
78
posted on
05/02/2008 7:15:52 PM PDT
by
TheDon
To: colorcountry
79
posted on
05/02/2008 7:16:28 PM PDT
by
TheDon
To: mountainbunny
Prayer for those who are dead (for non-LDS, anyway) is not to convert Excuse me LDS don't convert, the Holy Ghost does that!
The world convert the world to the world various religions but only the Only Holy Ghost can bring a soul to Christ!
No mortal can do that, I was witness too by the power of the Holy Ghost just me and the Spirit of the Lord.
Than I investigated the Church.
Prior to that I never met a missionary. You are misguided in your process! Thinking in they ways of the telestial world isn't going to elevate your thoughts and it seems very few every elevate their thoughts to the ways of the Lord.
80
posted on
05/02/2008 7:18:05 PM PDT
by
restornu
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