Posted on 04/29/2008 6:06:04 AM PDT by restornu
Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.
C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.
Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."
Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.
"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.
The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.
Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.
Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
You mean to tell me that the angels and/or seerstones enabled Smith to translate ancient hieroglyphs into perfect 17th century English, but they could help him spell “character”?
Hey,
there’s top of the line all knowing/all spelling angels and then there’s the second string heiroglyphics translation only angels.
Ya get what ya pray for!
That’s perfect 17th Century upstate Noo Yawk English, by the way. It’s funny that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri, but the accent is upstate New York.
Then what prompted them to go to Utah?
LOL
I know the Lord does not take us as serious as we take ourselves!:)
They went to Ohio, then Missouri, then back to Illinois, and then when JS got shot, they split up into the Smith family Company (called Reorganized LDS) and the Brigham Young Brigade (who maintained the original name) and got out of Dodge and headed for the wilds of Utah to get away from all the people that they had hacked off.
The Smith family headed to Independence, Missouri and many different offshoots went their separate ways including many of the folks back East, in Wisconsin, Kentucky, and Texas.
Utah was pretty wild and bereft of law enforcement; it enabled Brigham Young to establish himself as ruler of essentially a principality, more or less outside the rule of law. There are many benefits that come with becoming a religious despot including the possession of as many young girls as it takes to satisfy one’s whim.
If that were true than all would have remain Catholic there would have been no need for a reformation!
This Ecumenical took almost two thousand year to come to an agreement!
This happen only in my life time because it was not like that in the 60's.
And still they are divided because they can't agree on certain documents and how ordinance should be performed!
More bias and speculation!
I agree that there was no need for a Reformation.
The Reformation was fuelled by the nobility of Germany and middle allying with the Reformers in order to gain power. English Protestantism got its start by a certain King who wanted a divorce. It was only a coincidence that the churches and monestaries were looted and appropriated by the new powers all over Europe.
You are incorrect. The Diet of Worms was SPECIFICALLY convened to address Luther's 95 Theses, this is an acknowledgement that Luther's claims existed.
How can historical record of where the Mormons went be “bias and speculation”?
Pls ping the imans to this link. I contains an interesting investigation into the Anthon document and where Smith may have gotten his symbols from. It is a long read, but never the less very intersting.
http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2001RBSt.htm
It is the extra opinions and nuances, surmises that is the bias and speculation!
Such as hacked off etc that is telestial behavior saying things to demean and are inconclusive, just because the person could and did something that was over the line!
because one don't like something one thinks they can trash it all they want with out regards if it really accurate.
Ummm...I’m Christian, not Mormon. And the answer to the obvious follow-up question is, “no, they aren’t.”
Mormon 9:32-34:
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.
Suggested addition:
"And because that means of interpretation was a convicted fraud's peep stone and a hat, people knoweth not why we believeth. Thus, it is encumbered upon the apostle's of the church to altereth, and altereth, and altereth - less even the LDS faithful fall away (and reverteth back into presbyterianism)."
According to the text, it sounds like the reformed Egyptian was handed down to them and then they altered the reformed Egyptian according to their speech.
It is just too bad there just wasn't enough room on those plates to write in Hebrew! Now you are left with a prophecy of imperfection.
I had never caught that even the LDS scripture claims to be imperfect. So, resty, where exactly are these referenced imperfections?
***Such as hacked off etc that is telestial behavior saying things to demean and are inconclusive, just because the person could and did something that was over the line!***
The residents of Missouri were very hacked off at the Mormons. The historical record of both Mormons and non Mormons backs it up. The reason that the two main bodies of Mormons split so quickly is because they all were in danger of being killed by the locals.
That by itself is a very good indication that the locals were hacked off. The consideration of mass violence is rarely engaged in from purely intellectual purposes.
The bias and speculation claim gets trotted out whenever an even cursory examination gets aired.
I suspect that the attitude that Christians have towards the LDS is largely generated from the claim that they are Christian and that we are not.
I agree that the post Apostolic Christian Father's don't understand the true nature of Yahweh. Yet if the post apostolic fathers were really teaching what Christ taught then why did they allow Greek Philosophies such as "Homouosis" and "Trinity" to trump the simple a true gospel of the Bible Text. Show me again where the Bible says "triune"? Do you believe in sola scritpure or not? Acts 7:55-56 contradicts the post apostolic inventions of those who dabbled in greek philosophy about the true Nature of God.
From Ch. 3 of my previous source. Read this and get back to me about the liberal Greek philosophy which corrupts the Bible.
http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap04.html
The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man - The LDS Godhead vs. the Mainstream Trinity The LDS Concept of the Godhead The Godhead of the Bible One God or Three? What Kind of Being is God? The Mainstream Trinity The Nicene Creed "Of One Substance" More on the "Being" of God From "the One True God" to "the One" The God of Israel and the God of the Philosophers The Abandonment of Anthropomorphism The Anthropomorphic God of the Bible Anthropomorphism in Early Christianity The Son Becomes the Anthropomorphic God "God is a Spirit"-That is, Corporeal Allegorical Interpretation The Transcendent God Creation "Ex Nihilo" The Adoption of a New Doctrine The Earliest Christians and Creation Reasons for the Change A New Terminology Theological Implications of Creation Ex Nihilo Joseph Smith on the Creation From Godhead to Trinity The Problem of "Monotheism" Yahweh-Prince of Angels, Second God Jesus as Yahweh-Prince of Angels, Second God The Subordination of the Son and Spirit Problems With Subordinationism The "Word" Becomes the "Logos" Jesus Becomes an Abstraction A Portion of the "Divine Substance" The Impassible Logos The "Only Begotten" Son The Monarchian Crisis "Of One Substance" The Arian Crisis The Council of Nicea and its Aftermath The Mystery of the Trinity
Ch. 4 linked instead of Ch 3. sorry follow it to CH 3. or the table of contents will get you there as well.
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