Posted on 04/29/2008 6:06:04 AM PDT by restornu
Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.
C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.
Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."
Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.
"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.
The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.
Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.
Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
‘Hogwash’? ... More like effluent from the hogs. But some obviously need this for their heresy diet. Reminds me of the childish ‘if you don’t play by my rules I’ll take the ball and end the game’, only in this case the ‘children’ are trying to destroy Orthodox Christianity in order to establish their cultish beliefs as valid replacements. Or would that be ‘restored’, as in the current LDS campaign to discredit Christian Orthodoxy just enough to supplant it with Mormonism?... ‘But they’re such nice people, such nice families.’
Here is one thing that has NEVER made any sense. The Book of Mormon is purported to be a testament of Jesus Christ, yet Smith claimed that the gold plates were written in hieroglyphics. Why would it not have been written in Greek as ALL other Christian works in the early centuries were? Greek was the established language of writing during this period and had been for a long time before Christ. Why hieroglyphics?
It matters not if one is Christian or LDS should their behavior resembles that of the Caiaphas they are on the path of the Telestial!
I have met many Christian on FR who are on the Terrestrail path.
"Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said."
"Egypt and the Mediterrnean region" is elastic enough to cover anything the author wants to establish, I guess. I know the Muslims had conquered all of Northern Africa by the early 700's AD, because by 711 they were already crossing over and conquering Spain. Which was entirely under their control within 8 years. And then the Spaniards had to fight a 700 year war to push them back!
Fascinating, terrifying history.
What this has to do with Mormonism is, as far as I can see, zilch.
And there is another aspect of this. If Jesus Christ came, after the Resurrection, to the Nephites in America, as the Book of Mormon claims, why did Mormonism FAIL in America?
If what the Lord said in Matthew 16:18 is true and if He did come to America, then when European explorers arrived in America they should have found it to be full of Mormons.
And on top of that....the peep-stone interpretation was King James English.
Oh the webs we weave, when we try to deceive.
Actually, the “Mediterranean region” certainly includes Italy and Greece, both of which had growing Christian populations within decades of the Crucifixion and have remained Christian to this day.
The arguement being that the alledged date of migration is pre-greek conquest - thus greek language was not used. But then Smith couldn't read greek anyway
http://www.mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm
The 'reformed hieroglyphics' is even more problematical, since no such beast exists in the first place. But secondly, the Egyptians were hated by the Jews because of their slavery. That alone would be reason NOT to use hieroglyphics. Jewish writing in that period was in Hebrew until 3d century bc and the greek conquest.
Please explain how ANY Christian on this thread has exhibited behavior that resembles Caiaphas.
One explanation is that there were enough Greek scholars throughout American culture; as well, there were certainly enough Greek immigrants that could put the lie to anything that they saw.
Egyptian scholars were definitely in short supply and Joseph Smith not only had a more exotic story, there were fewer people who could possibly debunk this fabrication.
What this has to do with Mormonism is, as far as I can see, zilch.
Reformed Egyptian
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=36
Christ’s work resty, not any of mine.
But secondly, the Egyptians were hated by the Jews because of their slavery. That alone would be reason NOT to use hieroglyphics. Jewish writing in that period was in Hebrew until 3d century bc and the greek conquest.
Excellent point!
Excellent point. Nothing that was Scripture was ever originally written in anything other than Hebrew or Greek. It certainly wasn't hieroglyphics or mythological reformed hieroglyphics.
The article is interesting. It is a good thing for adherents of any belief set to investigate the reasons for their beliefs. Personally, I do not subscribe to Mormon theology. That doesn’t mean I despise Mormons. It simply means that when I used the same investigative techniques for Mormonism that I used for orthodox Christianity, I found Mormonism to be lacking.
When you say, “My faith is secure in the Book of Mormon”, that doesn’t make the Book of Mormon true (just as my saying, “My faith is secure in the New Testament”, doesn’t make the New Testament true). Indeed, there are Muslims who have faith that the Koran is true.
Either a thing is true OR it is not. Personal faith has no bearing on the truthfulness of something. Either Jesus died and rose again on the third day OR He did not.
The Book of Mormon was EITHER inspired by God OR it was not. Joseph Smith was EITHER a prophet OR he was not. There is no gray area when we speak of absolute truth.
Based on a complete lack of archaeological evidence, a disproving of Joseph Smith’s abilities to translate alleged ancient texts (as previous posts in this thread have shown) and a host of other counter arguments I choose not to believe that Mr. Smith was a messenger of God.
Gonna have to do better than a post from farms to try and support reformed heiroglyphics. No reputable Egyptologists recognize ‘reformed’ hieroglypics as anything other than absurd.
I don't understand. When the New York Times does this the rest of the media swallows the story and repeats with out asking one question. So why would you question this and not that?
The laughable assertion found in the link at #111 is a prime example of this industry existing to continue the fraud ... and still not one single manuscript has ever been produced from History written in this mythical language! Yet ‘scholars’ (mormonism apologetics workerbees) at BYU have reems of material trying to defend this fraud.
Can you give a scholarly source for “reformed Egyptian” that IS NOT Mormon? Can you give the name of a non-Mormon Egyptologist with accepted credentials in the field who is an expert on “reformed Egyptian”? Someone from say the Egyptian Museum, the British Museum, the Louvre, the Smithsonian?
Saying, “it’s true and here’s an expert to prove it,” is somewhat hollow when the “expert” is from BYU. An expert from BYU would be preferred when the topic is something like the history of Utah, but not on ancient Egypt.
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